AOII Eliminates Legacy Policy

[carnation]

I've been wondering--what does NPHC think about all this?

Twenty years ago, I was talking to the girls in my daughter's gang about rushing and there were 4 black girls whom I really wanted to rush. They told me that their moms would execute them if they didn't join their groups. (Which they did, 2 Deltas and 2 AKAs.)

Sure we can make a big deal about inclusiveness and so on, but will we be poaching on NPHC territory? And making enemies? Because Delta and AKA rule this city and I can't see the alums I know being thrilled with their daughters choosing a different path.

(Actually a lot of us have been messaging about this, really wanting to know the answer, and I finally decided to come out and ask.)

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by carnation

I've been wondering--what does NPHC think about all this?

Twenty years ago, I was talking to the girls in my daughter's gang about rushing and there were 4 black girls whom I really wanted to rush. They told me that their moms would execute them if they didn't join their groups. (Which they did, 2 Deltas and 2 AKAs.)

Sure we can make a big deal about inclusiveness and so on, but will we be poaching on NPHC territory? And making enemies? Because Delta and AKA rule this city and I can't see the alums I know being thrilled with their daughters choosing a different path.

(Actually a lot of us have been messaging about this, really wanting to know the answer, and I finally decided to come out and ask.)

This is a non-issue in NPHC organizations. Any woman or man we lose to an NPC or NIC organization as a first semester freshman is not the kind of person we are seeking in the first place. There is nothing wrong with that person, but we welcome people who have made up their minds.

Even if NPC "poached" certain women, it would never be enough to have a cultural or financial impact on our organizations. Our membership strongholds are historically black colleges and universities and alumni/ae and graduate chapters.

Any mother having a hissy fit because her daughter made another choice has missed the point of NPHC Greekdom as a whole: that we seek organizations because they are in our heart, and we are chosen because we have demonstrated our interest and proven ourselves worthy through close observation over a lengthy period of time.

Hope that clears things up. I'm happy to explain if anything is not clear.

ETA: Literally only one of my hundreds of NPHC friends on social media has even mentioned this, and he is a past national president of an org who merey finds it interesting.

[carnation]

Thank you!

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

This is a non-issue in NPHC organizations. Any woman or man we lose to an NPC or NIC organization as a first semester freshman is not the kind of person we are seeking in the first place. There is nothing wrong with that person, but we welcome people who have made up their minds.

Even if NPC "poached" certain women, it would never be enough to have a cultural or financial impact on our organizations. Our membership strongholds are historically black colleges and universities and alumni/ae and graduate chapters.

Any mother having a hissy fit because her daughter made another choice has missed the point of NPHC Greekdom as a whole: that we seek organizations because they are in our heart, and we are chosen because we have demonstrated our interest and proven ourselves worthy through close observation over a lengthy period of time.

Hope that clears things up. I'm happy to explain if anything is not clear.

ETA: Literally only one of my hundreds of NPHC friends on social media has even mentioned this, and he is a past national president of an org who merey finds it interesting.

I just totally admire the NPHC members' dedication to their membership. NPC just hasn't figured out how to get to that level and it makes me sad. It is truly to be admired and emulated.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I just totally admire the NPHC members' dedication to their membership. NPC just hasn't figured out how to get to that level and it makes me sad. It is truly to be admired and emulated.

We won’t get that level of dedication until we change the way we rush. For the most part, women join an NPC chapter because they like the women who are currently chapter members. I’ve read more than one post on here when the NPHC boards were more active from an interested woman who said she wasn’t sure she liked the current chapter members. The answer was usually something along the lines of “evaluate if this org is truly in your heart, and if so, be on about the business of Delta (or AKA, or Sigma, or Zeta).” They cultivate devotion to the National organization far above that of the local chapter. It’s the total opposite of NPC rush.

[carnation]

I think that part of the reason that we'll never get that level of devotion is our quotas. You can love and appreciate the aims of Alpha Alpha Alpha your whole young life but if you're one of the 95% of PNMs who are cut from that organization during recruitment because they can only take 75 women, then all that appreciation is down the toilet and you better pick a different group or stay independent.

[33girl]

This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I just totally admire the NPHC members' dedication to their membership. NPC just hasn't figured out how to get to that level and it makes me sad. It is truly to be admired and emulated.

Thank you, but also we've been doing things largely the same for years and years. It's not hard to "copy off our paper" if you wanted to.

However, NPHC orgs fill gaps that groups of white women have filled with other community and civic endeavors for many, many years. For example, the Junior League. There is no black version of the Junior League, so black sororities have filled that need for black women after graduation.

I'm not saying the Junior League is the main competitor for college women after graduation, but let's also be honest that most college women don't stay engaged in their sororities after college. Alumnae initiation is the true pipeline. Maybe even moreso for NPHC fraternities than sororities.

Originally Posted by PersistentDST

I agree with all of this. The conversation never comes up in my Greek circles. I only know of one guy that was participated in NIC recruitment, dropped and ended up joining an NPHC organization.

Our councils offer different sorority experiences. We all offer leadership, service and social opportunities, but different nevertheless. Normally, it’s a pretty clear line between “interests” and “PNM’s,” regardless of race/ethnicity.

I keep seeing discussions about what the NPC organizations can do to attract more diverse young women to participate in recruitment. I honestly don’t think there is one special, magical answer to that question, because Black people (and non-Black POC) are diverse. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations, right? Black PNM’s watch the same recruitment videos, obsess over chapter IG pages and plan their outfits and hair styles 3 months before recruitment just like everyone else. Just like their peers, they are attracted to the things that they believe NPC membership will offer them. You can’t poach someone that wants to be poached. Similarly, non-Black NPHC members saw something in our organizations that made them research and pursue us. They have the same expectations placed on them as our Black interests.

I agree with all of this. I wanted to tag you in before I answered, but I don't know you in real life LOL

Originally Posted by carnation

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

I don't know that a dialogue is really necessary, though. I just think that NPC alumnae groups need to show up in places that they're not accustomed to. In my home town, for example, there is definitely an alumnae panhellenic. But are they showing up in DC Public Schools to talk about the sorority experience?

Originally Posted by 33girl

We won’t get that level of dedication until we change the way we rush. For the most part, women join an NPC chapter because they like the women who are currently chapter members. I’ve read more than one post on here when the NPHC boards were more active from an interested woman who said she wasn’t sure she liked the current chapter members. The answer was usually something along the lines of “evaluate if this org is truly in your heart, and if so, be on about the business of Delta (or AKA, or Sigma, or Zeta).” They cultivate devotion to the National organization far above that of the local chapter. It’s the total opposite of NPC rush.

I agree with this, too. And with alumnae/alumni intake, we definitely encourage people who don't feel like the college chapter is a fit to just wait and pursue after they graduate. For me, I didn't come to know I wanted to pursue Alpha until I was a senior in college, but because I knew about alumni chapters, I was happy to wait until the timing was better.

Originally Posted by carnation

I think that part of the reason that we'll never get that level of devotion is our quotas. You can love and appreciate the aims of Alpha Alpha Alpha your whole young life but if you're one of the 95% of PNMs who are cut from that organization during recruitment because they can only take 75 women, then all that appreciation is down the toilet and you better pick a different group or stay independent.

That's part of it. I know a lot more goes into it than this, but NPC orgs have to be okay with being dramatically different sizes if they want to change the culture. I'd rather see a college campus with a huge chapter of Chi Chi Chi and a small chapter of Pi Alpha--if that's who they decide to be based on available interest.

This happens at large black colleges where 75 women may pledge AKA or Delta, 15 may pledge Zeta, and 5 may pledge SGRho -- and nobody is unhappy with those numbers because everybody is where they want to be (except the women who got rejected of course lol).

Originally Posted by 33girl

This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.

I think here is a place to retell the brief story that my mom (a Delta of nearly 50 years) rushed at a Michigan college and ALL the sororities participated. She still has a memento from a Delta Zeta rush party (I think she got a bid). I am not sure how it was structured, but she went into the rush because it was mandatory to go visit all the orgs, and for all orgs to participate, even if they weren't necessarily giving out bids.

That said...

Me and NUPE4LIFE (former Kappa mod and friend of mine) discuss Greek life all the time, and we've come to the agreement that all Greek orgs should participate in some sort of mandatory first round event where all orgs are visited. This would build an appreciation of BGLO, LGLO, and MCGLOs among the predominately white organizations, while allowing those same orgs to "catch" people who didn't know about them beforehand, if that makes sense.

It puts everyone on the same playing field if you come to college not knowing the totality of Greekdom. This would allow the AKA and Delta legacy daughters that Carnation mentioned the chance to really see the other side, and would allow students who don't know any better have a chance to make an informed decision.

AND the elimination of legacy preference levels the playing field further.

Recs should indeed be next on the chopping block.

Sorry if this rambles. I'm used to speaking about this more than typing about it.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by carnation

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

But this is the very point. College students WILL go for the experience they prefer. At least they should, and we should be encouraging that.

And they'd prefer not to get yelled at when mom has a hissy fit because their darling daughter didn't make the same choice they made 30 years prior.

Again, this legacy decision didn't happen overnight. And no, I don't think it's "bad timing." I think a giant movement and the in-our-faces-all-day-every-day thing needed to happen to wake us all up and take action on something (e.g. our legacy policies) that some people have been talking about for at least a decade. Sometimes we all need one giant slap in the face to realize that maybe we're not doing everything perfectly and could use a change.

And let's also not pretend that some members, chapters, and even organizations as a whole haven't openly been racist, or at the very least, non-inclusive. You really think that all of our "picture-perfect" chapters filled with 100+ tall, skinny blondes is treating all potential members as equals? You think they're giving the black girl, or the overweight girl, or the girl with the pink hair the same opportunities as someone who looks exactly like them? Please.

Originally Posted by 33girl

This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.

Truth. We push away women who are truly dedicated and we give a pass through rounds to women who may want nothing to do with our organizations.

Look, I don't know what all the answers are, but we really can't continue to do the same thing over and over, year after year, decade after decade, and expect to survive. Change is inevitable. And major events occurring today - BLM, COVID-19 - are going to drastically change how and why women attend college years from now. Are we going to be able as NPC sororities to adapt and be relevant for the 18-year-olds of the future?

[PersistentDST]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

This is a non-issue in NPHC organizations. Any woman or man we lose to an NPC or NIC organization as a first semester freshman is not the kind of person we are seeking in the first place. There is nothing wrong with that person, but we welcome people who have made up their minds.

Even if NPC "poached" certain women, it would never be enough to have a cultural or financial impact on our organizations. Our membership strongholds are historically black colleges and universities and alumni/ae and graduate chapters.

Any mother having a hissy fit because her daughter made another choice has missed the point of NPHC Greekdom as a whole: that we seek organizations because they are in our heart, and we are chosen because we have demonstrated our interest and proven ourselves worthy through close observation over a lengthy period of time.

Hope that clears things up. I'm happy to explain if anything is not clear.

ETA: Literally only one of my hundreds of NPHC friends on social media has even mentioned this, and he is a past national president of an org who merey finds it interesting.

I agree with all of this. The conversation never comes up in my Greek circles. I only know of one guy that was participated in NIC recruitment, dropped and ended up joining an NPHC organization.

Our councils offer different sorority experiences. We all offer leadership, service and social opportunities, but different nevertheless. Normally, it’s a pretty clear line between “interests” and “PNM’s,” regardless of race/ethnicity.

I keep seeing discussions about what the NPC organizations can do to attract more diverse young women to participate in recruitment. I honestly don’t think there is one special, magical answer to that question, because Black people (and non-Black POC) are diverse. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations, right? Black PNM’s watch the same recruitment videos, obsess over chapter IG pages and plan their outfits and hair styles 3 months before recruitment just like everyone else. Just like their peers, they are attracted to the things that they believe NPC membership will offer them. You can’t poach someone that wants to be poached. Similarly, non-Black NPHC members saw something in our organizations that made them research and pursue us. They have the same expectations placed on them as our Black interests.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by carnation

Sure we can make a big deal about inclusiveness and so on, but will we be poaching on NPHC territory? And making enemies? Because Delta and AKA rule this city and I can't see the alums I know being thrilled with their daughters choosing a different path.

Ironically, this is the very issue with our legacy policies.

There are certain expectations that some moms put on their daughters and/or a chapter and/or their national organization to essentially guarantee their daughter a bid.

And I say moms, because honestly, in all the angry leagacy-based phone calls I've heard about over the last 15+ years (since I've been Greek) both here on Greekchat and elsewhere, 99% of them have been from moms (and not grandmothers, biological sisters, etc.).

And what is this 'poaching' you speak of? Why would anyone be upset with a young woman going down the path she sees as being the best for herself, based on knowledge and positive experiences; a place where she feels most comfortable? If someone's mad about that, well... f*** them, I say. If that's a problem for ANY of us in Greek life, no matter the council or organization, then we're all failing miserably.

We need to allow women to make the best decision for themselves. Without pressure. Without guilt. Without making them feel 'less than'. And all of us (adults) need to stop putting so much social pressure on teenagers and/or making them feel like the sorority they join will determine their lot in life and how successful they are, or who they'll marry, or how much money they'll make, or how popular they'll be.

Maybe some people finally stood up and said they've had enough of all that. And good for them, I say!

[carnation]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And what is this 'poaching' you speak of? Why would anyone be upset with a young woman going down the path she sees as being the best for herself, based on knowledge and positive experiences; a place where she feels most comfortable? If someone's mad about that, well... f*** them, I say. If that's a problem for ANY of us in Greek life, no matter the council or organization, then we're all failing miserably.

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by carnation

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did).

I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

Might more than a few college administrators need to raise their level of understanding by also participating in this NPC/NPHC sorority diversification dialog of which you speak?

[carnation]

YES.