Define Hazing

[Rod D]

So the squeaky chicken was a good example. At the end of the day it is entirely harmless and kind of funny. Sure the police use it to keep composure -- part of their job. So that legitimizes it. But what harm is there if a GLO (or other group) did it? They end up in trouble? Do we want to say "that's hazing" in this context?

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by navane

I agree. I am both a firefighter and a peace officer. I never had a plastic chicken squeezed in my face in any of my academies; but, I understand the lesson that the instructors were presenting. To tag onto what winter is explaining, fire, military and police have something that GLOs don't - a very real and present need to be able to perform under pressure in a life-threatening situation. Along with that comes the need to be able to follow directions from superiors, think quickly, and act decisively. Fraternity and sorority members do not, I repeat, DO NOT have the same expectation to perform in life and death situations. So, comparisons of GLOs to military or first responders isn't really equivalent and, yes, context matters.

Now, that said.....what about those videos of military personnel getting hazed by having their qualification pins jammed into their chests, or Sailors going through wog/shellback ceremonies, or some firefighter duct taping a probie to the wall or whatever. Not ok. That's hazing and does not have a direct correlation to a real world task or expectation. When I was in my first firefighter academy, we were "punished" with push-ups or flutter kicks for not getting correct answers on questions when asked; but, an instructor was always on the ground doing the punishment exercise with us. The purpose was to impress on us the need to know the information and to maintain our physical fitness. You might be able to argue that forcing fraternity pledges to do push-ups will also convince them to memorize fraternity history, but I still think that is not entirely the same. Being able to remember the names of the 12 founders is not the same as knowing the 10 standard firefighting orders and 18 wildland fire safety rules which are directly related to life and death safety considerations. Further, I'll laugh at anyone who tries to say that maintaining physical strength is a key component of fraternities and sororities.

The chicken squeaking was a little silly; but, I understand the point of it and the video shows to me that none of the recruits were unnecessarily harmed or punished excessively. In terms of GLOs, pledge pictures and hometowns on a bulletin board is NOT hazing and neither is pledge interviews or an innocent scavenger hunt. But, come on, don't act naive. You know full well that things like scavenger hunts were banned as hazing because some idiots decided that, if a scavenger hunt for innocent items was fun, a scavenger hunt for liquor, nudity, vandalism and sexual imagery would be even funnier. So, because some can't be trusted with a basic task, it all gets locked down. I mean, instead of having a party with some beers and good times, they have to shovel entire handles of liquor down pledges throats until 911 is called or a kid dies.

Then we wonder why we can't have nice things and we wring our hands over squeaking chickens, scavenger hunts, bulletin boards, and house chores.

Amen to the whole post

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by Rod D

So the squeaky chicken was a good example. At the end of the day it is entirely harmless and kind of funny. Sure the police use it to keep composure -- part of their job. So that legitimizes it. But what harm is there if a GLO (or other group) did it? They end up in trouble? Do we want to say "that's hazing" in this context?

If that's all they're doing, society has bigger fish to fry. However, anyone in any GLO nowadays needs to realize, in light of what's going on, everything. They do and say will be analyzed. Fair or not, that's what it's come to because of the bad apples. If people continue to die at this rate, I honestly don't know what the future holds for Greek life. It's really this generation's to make or break.

[navane]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Then SOME idiots should be punished, not the whole Greek system. As I said, the ones who didn’t haze will feel resentful and the ones who do haze will figure ways around it and not learn a damn thing.

I never said I agreed with the "punish everyone" approach. When it comes to preventing hazing, common sense went out the window.

Originally Posted by Rod D

So the squeaky chicken was a good example. At the end of the day it is entirely harmless and kind of funny. Sure the police use it to keep composure -- part of their job. So that legitimizes it. But what harm is there if a GLO (or other group) did it? They end up in trouble? Do we want to say "that's hazing" in this context?

Frankly, I don't really have an issue with the squeaky chicken in a fraternity scenario. I don't see the harm if it's just a funny game to pass the time. Like, throwing paper basketballs in a wastepaper basket - if you miss, you do 5 push-ups - or something like that. People do that kind of stuff everywhere.

I mean, we even have that thread here at GreekChat - You Laugh, You Lose: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...d.php?t=105269


My point was that this type of "everything could be hazing" policy is an overcorrection for what is seen as an inability of youth to use good judgement and self-control.

[*winter*]

The problem comes in, we live in a society where someone WOULD complain about the chicken. And action would be taken, the whole 9 yards. We also live in a society where people think it's okay to urinate on, beat and force feed alcohol to pledges. And the pledges seem willing, for the most part, to take it. It's like, the number of people complaining about stupid stuff being hazing has gone up, but so has the violence and level of harm of the people who are actually hazing. I wouldn't want to work in HQ right now.

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by navane

My point was that this type of "everything could be hazing" policy is an overcorrection for what is seen as an inability of youth to use good judgement and self-control.

This.

[AGDee]

The chicken squeaking isn't the problem, the forcing someone to do the pushups is the problem. What if they can't do the pushups? What does the punishment become then? What if they have a medical problem? How long does this go on? Do they end up going all night because one person keeps laughing? There is risk for it going badly. Next thing, someone is making them do shots if they laugh. Then someone ends up doing 20 shots and is in ER. In too many cases, these students have shown that they cannot make good decisions and they put their brothers/sisters and their organization at risk because they don't know when to stop.

If there's not a purpose to it that relates to the organization's values, why do it?

[Rod D]

So back to the original question:

1) Is it hazing to require new members to attend study tables?

2) Is it hazing to require new members to clean "the house?" Or do other house projects?

3) How about "pledge rides" or "pledge uber?"