What to tell overconfident PNMs

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by carnation

We didn't forget! But those girls were usually waaaay out of the ballpark. Now there are far too many legacies rushing for sororities to take them all.

I have trouble with this statement in its many forms. Not to single out carnation, but I see it a lot.

I thought I understood RFM.

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

[clemsongirl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I have trouble with this statement in its many forms. Not to single out carnation, but I see it a lot.

I thought I understood RFM.

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

It's been a few years now, but I think when I was involved in my chapter's recruitment we had around the same number of legacies going through as quota, which hovered in the 60s. But, part of that was an upperclassman quota, which was around 15 because Clemson has a fairly large number of sophomores in recruitment for a couple reasons (and they are very successful). Thus, if more of those legacies were first-year students than upperclassmen, which I think they were but I don't remember for sure, we would have had more than we could take.

Obviously this is one poorly-remembered anecdote, but it's possible. Or, take ADPi's chapter at Brenau University. Quota there is something like 8-it's entirely possible that one of the six sororities there could have more than eight legacies in recruitment, especially sororities with a more liberal definition of legacy.

I agree that in generally it's not likely, and people are probably saying it more to mean "we don't want a whole pledge class of legacies", which is also valid, but a little different.

EDIT: another difference between "too many women rushing to take them all" and "too many legacies" is that legacies are chapter specific. There are a lot more ADPi legacies in Clemson recruitment than say, Sigma Kappa legacies by virtue of the fact that there are many more ADPi chapters in the areas Clemson students come from that are very old. Vice versa in other locations with other sororities. Legacies aren't divvied up at pref night equally. Also, a woman can be a legacy to more than one chapter but only counts as one PNM.

[HQWest]

Just to throw in from experience as an advisor, the awkward call avoids a lot of hurt feelings on the part of alumnae. Sometimes the national sorority requirements are lower than the chapter or campus requirements, and in that case it is better to release the legacy.

I do think - in a chapter that had fewer legacies than some, it was helpful to be able to ask the chapter women to allow the legacy to decide whether she wanted to pledge or not if she didn't "fit" with the chapter, by saying that we did not want to disappoint their mom or sister. We usually reminded them about how would they feel if it was their sister going through. We also got some really great women that were shy during recruitment but awesome sisters.

In the chapter that had more legacies than quota (number of chapters was large but quota was low (@24) and it was an old well-regarded chapter), girls going in had an idea that a legacy was an added plus but not a sure thing.

You also have to consider that different NPC groups have different standards of what constitutes a legacy. Some recognize cousins or aunts and some only sisters and mothers. It would not hurt for the NPC groups on campus to put out a statement to the PNMs that defined this ahead of time.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

I could see that for a couple of chapters there. Or try any school in MS for Delta Gammas. We were founded in MS and often have close to a pledge class worth at any of the 3 schools there.

[carnation]

Legacywise, the ADPis, Zetas, and Phi Mus are covered over in the Southeast. Maybe Chi Os and KDs to a lesser extent.

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

Originally Posted by Titchou

I could see that for a couple of chapters there. Or try any school in MS for Delta Gammas. We were founded in MS and often have close to a pledge class worth at any of the 3 schools there.

Or try Kappa Alpha Theta at Indiana University or Purdue University. Theta was founded at DePauw, IU is the Beta chapter. There are a ton of Theta legacies at most Indiana universities. One of the years I was a collegian, there were over 100 Theta legacies and our bed rush pledge classes ranged from 30-55. Easily more than enough Theta legacies for two or three pledge classes.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

Originally Posted by Titchou

I could see that for a couple of chapters there. Or try any school in MS for Delta Gammas. We were founded in MS and often have close to a pledge class worth at any of the 3 schools there.

I knew I had to be missing something. I have zero experience with multi-generational greeks and, as I said, did not even try to persuade my daughter to rush at UT (though later, when I inquired via email about COB, I got what I considered to be a rude and condescending response from the chapter representative; we were approaching the question from two very different frameworks).

So I can see that sometimes this is the case. Not as often as it's seemingly presented here, but sometimes. Thank you for clearing it up. I wish it weren't presented here as being so common, but I understand better.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

This.

And to add to what everyone else has said:

Another reason why phone calls may eventually become obsolete: Too many legacy connections for one PNM. I'm in my early 30s, and my grandparents were born in the 1920s/1930s when NPCs were still relatively new and many women weren't attending college. My mom attended a school with no NPC sororities.

As the years go on, there will be more and more PNMs with more and more legacy connections. A much higher percentage of women are now attending college. NPCs are opening between 2-7 new chapters each year. A record number of PNMs are signing up for recruitment at schools across the country.

What happens when a PNM has two grandmothers, a mother, and two sisters who were all in different NPCs? And what about those groups that consider aunts, cousins, etc. as legacy connections? Do you really think they'll each feel that they're owed a phone call?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

This.

And to add to what everyone else has said:

Another reason why phone calls may eventually become obsolete: Too many legacy connections for one PNM. I'm in my early 30s, and my grandparents were born in the 1920s/1930s when NPCs were still relatively new and many women weren't attending college. My mom attended a school with no NPC sororities.

As the years go on, there will be more and more PNMs with more and more legacy connections. A much higher percentage of women are now attending college. NPCs are opening between 2-7 new chapters each year. A record number of PNMs are signing up for recruitment at schools across the country.

What happens when a PNM has two grandmothers, a mother, and two sisters who were all in different NPCs? And what about those groups that consider aunts, cousins, etc. as legacy connections? Do you really think they'll each feel that they're owed a phone call?

The one with the closest connection to the particular group gets the call...and it's her responsibility to let the other relatives in THAT group know. And the purpose of the call is two-fold: as a courtesy to the member and so that SHE can call the PNM and let her know rather than have her hear it from her Rho Chi. Sorry, we Southerners are old school....

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Titchou

The one with the closest connection to the particular group gets the call...and it's her responsibility to let the other relatives in THAT group know. And the purpose of the call is two-fold: as a courtesy to the member and so that SHE can call the PNM and let her know rather than have her hear it from her Rho Chi. Sorry, we Southerners are old school....

Never said you weren't. And I understand the reasons behind it. I just don't know that it will matter that much to the mom, grandmother, etc., or to the PNM in the future as much as it has in the past.

Just saying.. things might change.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by Titchou

the purpose of the call is two-fold: as a courtesy to the member and so that SHE can call the PNM and let her know rather than have her hear it from her Rho Chi.

I understand that this is one of the perceived benefits of contacting the legacy relative, but this approach has always rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it's because my school didn't have any sororities I had a legacy connection to, but I would have been really irritated if a family member who wasn't involved in my rush experience had called me to deliver such news. I'm southern and went to a southern school, so it can't all be cultural.

It seems to me that the best person to deliver that kind of news is someone who is currently actively involved in that rush. We (NPC) go out of our way to create a vacuum-like environment for recruitment. Why do we 'break the seal' for this?