Indiana University Tri Delta Closed

[shadokat]

Dear Special Snowflake Moms - In case you weren't aware, Tri Delta is not governed by the United States Constitution. They are governed by their own system, and unless that system is in violation of laws of this country or the chapter's state, they can do whatever the hell they want to their chapter.

I say this to the actives that I advise all the time. Unless the sorority is breaking the law, sorority rules are what govern the organization. I had one girl who said to me that she didn't think it was fair that she wasn't allowed to vote in chapter elections because she was on academic probation. Her argument was that even prisoners in some states are allowed to vote. I said 1) we aren't voting for elected officials of the country, so the country's voting laws do not apply. And 2) prisoners are only allowed to vote in like Rhode Island, so go there if you don't like it.

I also had a 22-year old woman's mother call me 2 weeks ago because she felt that her daughter was being isolated from the group and excluded because she lost an election for a position. GIVE ME A BREAK! Let your adult children handle their own business for Pete's sake!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shadokat

Dear Special Snowflake Moms - In case you weren't aware, Tri Delta is not governed by the United States Constitution. They are governed by their own system, and unless that system is in violation of laws of this country or the chapter's state, they can do whatever the hell they want to their chapter.

I say this to the actives that I advise all the time. Unless the sorority is breaking the law, sorority rules are what govern the organization. I had one girl who said to me that she didn't think it was fair that she wasn't allowed to vote in chapter elections because she was on academic probation. Her argument was that even prisoners in some states are allowed to vote. I said 1) we aren't voting for elected officials of the country, so the country's voting laws do not apply. And 2) prisoners are only allowed to vote in like Rhode Island, so go there if you don't like it.

I also had a 22-year old woman's mother call me 2 weeks ago because she felt that her daughter was being isolated from the group and excluded because she lost an election for a position. GIVE ME A BREAK! Let your adult children handle their own business for Pete's sake!

+1+1+1

If this 22-year-old daughter thinks it's appropriate in any way to get mommy to fight her battles for her, mother has failed as a parent (unless your kid has special needs or something). This episode simply reeks of over-privileged little shits who can't process life sometimes sucking. What kind of future professionals/mothers/etc. are these parents trying to raise? How are these women going to interact with the world when they are in their 30s and 40s?

[PhilTau]

The facts behind all this have not been disclosed. So these moms have a right to be pissed off. Keep in mind that several years of membership in this organization represents a significant financial investment totaling thousands of dollars-- dues, initiation fees, house charges, fines, assessments, clothes, etc. At the very least, they deserve from the national organization an accurate explanation of what happened. The people most damaged are the newest members, who joined without knowing that the chapter was about to end.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by PhilTau

The facts behind all this have not been disclosed. So these moms have a right to be pissed off. Keep in mind that several years of membership in this organization represents a significant financial investment totaling thousands of dollars-- dues, initiation fees, house charges, fines, assessments, clothes, etc. At the very least, they deserve from the national organization an accurate explanation of what happened. The people most damaged are the newest members, who joined without knowing that the chapter was about to end.

I disagree strongly with your opinion.

The moms don't have any "rights" to be anything here, nor do they "deserve an accurate explanation of what happened" because that is chapter business. 18 is the legal age of majority in Indiana. That means at that age, a person is considered to be an adult, regardless of who is footing the bill, period. Parents may be paying dues (or what have you); however, that does not entitle them to know any of the private workings of a private organization. Universities don't discuss students with their parents. There's no "right to know" based on dollars spent. End of discussion.

As for your assertion that "the facts behind all this have not been disclosed", I ask you: why should Tri Delta or any other private membership organization have any obligation to make disciplinary matters public? Membership is voluntary. It comes with significant responsibilities and obligations. No one in any chapter is being held hostage, to the best of my knowledge.

Further, I don't see it reported anywhere that the actives have lost their membership in Tri Delta. The new members have been released, not having been initiated.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PhilTau

The facts behind all this have not been disclosed. So these moms have a right to be pissed off. Keep in mind that several years of membership in this organization represents a significant financial investment totaling thousands of dollars-- dues, initiation fees, house charges, fines, assessments, clothes, etc. At the very least, they deserve from the national organization an accurate explanation of what happened. The people most damaged are the newest members, who joined without knowing that the chapter was about to end.

From an alumni-adviser's standpoint, you couldn't be more wrong. I've not yet had a member's parent contact me regarding anything. The only time I've had direct contact with parents was a few years back when we had an active member pass away.

Chapter members are likely completely aware of why their chapter was shut down. There was probably some sort of process and notification as to what facts the organization was relying on to shutter the chapter.. or there might not have been and it's no one's business but the members of the organization.

If my job description included dealing with parents, they'd have to give me a salary to do it.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Chapter members are likely completely aware of why their chapter was shut down. There was probably some sort of process and notification as to what facts the organization was relying on to shutter the chapter.. or there might not have been and it's no one's business but the members of the organization.

Yes, these young women know exactly what went down to earn them probation and then having their charter pulled. It is costly to lose a chapter-emotionally and financially, and it is not done without merit.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

LOOK: no fraternity or sorority makes the decision to "pull" a charter lightly. It comes after all other interventions have been tried, often for several years, and have not succeeded. The women in this IU chapter know full well why the charter was revoked. It didn't come out of the blue, for no reason, on a whim.

Know this, too: it is painful for everyone involved, most especially those who have to make the decision to close the chapter. Trust me on this. Tri Delta is a stellar organization and I believe they made this decision after trying every possible solution to turn the chapter around.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the parents' complaints, which basically imply that Tri Delta closed this chapter down for no reason. Just because they felt like it.

Let's be serious - closing a chapter can cause issues for an organization as a whole. Money lost, time consumed, housing complications, less interest and support from alumnae, potentially a hit to the org's reputation, and having to listen to complaints from members and/or their helicopter parents.

What organization would want to do that to itself.. just because?

[PhilTau]

Disagreeing with me is okay. But I must point out that your disagreement is based on speculation about the facts behind the chapter's termination. The article contains only innuendo. Generally, all the national organization must to do is establish that it acted in good faith and in accordance with its governing documents and contractual agreements with the chapter and chapter members, if any. Of course I could be completely wrong because this is pure speculation by me since I don't know the state where the national organization is incorporated,or knowledge of any of the underlying facts or the organization's governing documents or agreements.

The girls in this chapter may legally be adults but I would never expect 18 to 22 year-olds to know how to effectively assert their rights or even know what those right are. And there is nothing wrong in getting help from their parents. People in the 40s get help from their parents all the time. Oh - and nothing in this post should in any way be construed as legal opinion or legal advice.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by PhilTau

Disagreeing with me is okay. But I must point out that your disagreement is based on speculation about the facts behind the chapter's termination. The article contains only innuendo. Generally, all the national organization must to do is establish that it acted in good faith and in accordance with its governing documents and contractual agreements with the chapter and chapter members, if any. Of course I could be completely wrong because this is pure speculation by me since I don't know the state where the national organization is incorporated,or knowledge of any of the underlying facts or the organization's governing documents or agreements.

The girls in this chapter may legally be adults but I would never expect 18 to 22 year-olds to know how to effectively assert their rights or even know what those right are. And there is nothing wrong in getting help from their parents. People in the 40s get help from their parents all the time. Oh - and nothing in this post should in any way be construed as legal opinion or legal advice.

If you're talking to me, you need to re-read what I wrote. My disagreement with you is not based on speculation about the facts which led to the revocation of the charter. AAMOF I didn't say anything at all about what the reason for the charter revocation was. Read my remarks again, carefully. I didn't reference the article, either. And you yourself are speculating, which is somewhat annoying, given the context of your post. It almost seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You know?

Let me simplify what I said:

1) parents don't have rights in this situation.
2) chapter business is internal.
3) 18 is the age of majority and you can look up the legal definition of same.

At 18 I was more than capable of asserting my rights, and I knew what they were. You underestimate this generation. As for the people in their 40s comment, I really don't have anything to say to you about that.

If you're talking to Kevin as well, he's more than capable of responding to you, if he so chooses. I don't think anything you say resembles legal opinion or legal advice, but thanks for the disclaimer.

PS it's grammAr, not grammEr.

[shadokat]

These moms should educate themselves on sorority membership. Nobody is guaranteed anything. There's no contract. As for their significant financial investment, well, if these women can afford to hire an attorney because their sorority chapter closed, I'm not all that concerned with their level of financial stability. Moral of this whole story is that chapter can claim ignorance all they want, but they were already on probation until 2019, and you can only push so far before your national pushes back.

Originally Posted by PhilTau

The facts behind all this have not been disclosed. So these moms have a right to be pissed off. Keep in mind that several years of membership in this organization represents a significant financial investment totaling thousands of dollars-- dues, initiation fees, house charges, fines, assessments, clothes, etc. At the very least, they deserve from the national organization an accurate explanation of what happened. The people most damaged are the newest members, who joined without knowing that the chapter was about to end.

[DeltaEmi88]

Originally Posted by PhilTau

The facts behind all this have not been disclosed. So these moms have a right to be pissed off. Keep in mind that several years of membership in this organization represents a significant financial investment totaling thousands of dollars-- dues, initiation fees, house charges, fines, assessments, clothes, etc. At the very least, they deserve from the national organization an accurate explanation of what happened. The people most damaged are the newest members, who joined without knowing that the chapter was about to end.

Okay, I have read through all of your posts, and I have to just say that as an alumna of the organization in question, I disagree with nearly everything you have said. First of all, chapter business is just that: chapter business. The women who are/were members of the chapter very clearly know what is wrong, since they were placed on probation. Our Executive Office is good at communicating with chapters, and if there is something that needs to be corrected, then they will tell them to correct it. Also, chapter business is NOT the business of the mothers of the members. The mothers are not active members of the chapter, and they most likely do not know about the internal affairs, policies, and bylaws of the chapter.

Second, the women of the chapter know what they are getting into when they join. I'm not going to go into it because it is chapter business, but the expectations for every member is clearly laid out. The new members have not been initiated, so it is not as if they were initiated and are now stuck on campus without a chapter. They are free to join another sorority.

And third, what occurred within the chapter is between the chapter and Executive Office. No one is owed an explanation of why the chapter was shut down, and furthermore, our EO did provide an explanation. Just because it is not detailed does not mean that it isn't an explanation. Private chapter business is just that-private. No mother is owed an explanation, same as alumni that were not involved. It is between the chapter members and EO.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaEmi88

Okay, I have read through all of your posts, and I have to just say that as an alumna of the organization in question, I disagree with nearly everything you have said. First of all, chapter business is just that: chapter business. The women who are/were members of the chapter very clearly know what is wrong, since they were placed on probation. Our Executive Office is good at communicating with chapters, and if there is something that needs to be corrected, then they will tell them to correct it. Also, chapter business is NOT the business of the mothers of the members. The mothers are not active members of the chapter, and they most likely do not know about the internal affairs, policies, and bylaws of the chapter.

Second, the women of the chapter know what they are getting into when they join. I'm not going to go into it because it is chapter business, but the expectations for every member is clearly laid out. The new members have not been initiated, so it is not as if they were initiated and are now stuck on campus without a chapter. They are free to join another sorority.

And third, what occurred within the chapter is between the chapter and Executive Office. No one is owed an explanation of why the chapter was shut down, and furthermore, our EO did provide an explanation. Just because it is not detailed does not mean that it isn't an explanation. Private chapter business is just that-private. No mother is owed an explanation, same as alumni that were not involved. It is between the chapter members and EO.

Try looking at it this way. Say your daughter was on a campus dance team where she had to buy her own uniform, attend a weeklong camp over the summer, and pay partial costs for travel to the places the team performed. All of a sudden, the team gets shut down and the girls have no way of recouping the money. No reason is given except some vague corporatespeak. As a parent, wouldn't you be angry?

I agree that these women are adults & that this is their fight, and probably didn't tell their parents everything, and that there's certainly some fwap fwapping. But to pooh-pooh all the parents' feelings, especially when many of them were probably paying the (not cheap) sorority dues, is just not realistic. Step out of thinking about it as a sorority member and think about it as a parent. Whether or not they have a legal right to feel that way, it's perfectly understandable that they do.

And I COMPLETELY disagree that chapter alumnae who weren't involved, whatever "involved" means, don't deserve a full explanation. That's along the same lines as saying alumnae who aren't advising or active in an alum chapter shouldn't be allowed to write recs.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by 33girl

And I COMPLETELY disagree that chapter alumnae who weren't involved, whatever "involved" means, don't deserve a full explanation. That's along the same lines as saying alumnae who aren't advising or active in an alum chapter shouldn't be allowed to write recs.

Not addressing your other comments b/c you already know where I stand on those issues, and others have also commented on the parents' "right to be angry" .

I can't follow or agree with your reasoning, and I offer my opinion based on personal experience. Here's why I think differently than you do on this issue:

We do not permit alumnae to participate in membership selection. We do not permit alumnae to attend chapter meetings (unless they are on the advisory board), and interfere in chapter business. We do not permit alumnae to attend social functions. Alumnae do not participate in chapter discipline proceedings. And so on. A "full explanation" involves details of chapter business which, frankly, are not alumnae business. As alumnae, we have a responsibility (and even a duty) to trust our headquarters/executive offices to be in charge and on top of what's going on at the college level. That is not our concern. There is a very strong element of trust, as well as ritual, involved here. And you can see where I'm going with this, as can anyone else who's reading.

In my experience, alumnae who "came out of the woodwork" only wanted to know gossip, dirty details, and "what did those girls do wrong?". The alumnae who were involved with the chapter, and the recent alumnae (new graduates, or those who graduated within the past five-ten years) are generally well aware of problems which lead to a chapter being put on probation or stricter discipline. And the rest of the Greek community, as well as the University administration, is aware. It is up to the individual members to explain (or not) to their parents. The members know why this happened.

For me it is enough to read that the chapter was closed for the reason(s) given. There is no correlation between providing a "full explanation" and writing a membership recommendation. It's apples and oranges. They are not equivalent.

[33girl]

I don't think whatever happened should be put on blast for the world to see just so alumnae can know what's up. But if a chapter alumna contacts HQ asking what happened, IMO she deserves more than just some vague corporatespeak about values and purpose. She wouldn't be a sister if that chapter hadn't existed.

Perhaps if some of the alumnae of chapters that close DID know more details of why it happened, they'd understand and agree with why HQ made such a decision and have more trust and respect when it happens in the future. It would be great if every single GLO chapter out there had a perfect relationship with their HQ, but as both those entities include humans that are capable of mistakes and emotions, it doesn't always work that way.

There are 4 groups involved in every chapter closure - the college chapter, the alumnae, the national office and the campus Greek system - and if you put all their viewpoints in a blender, perhaps you would come out with 100% accuracy of what happened.

ETA: this is speaking generally, not this chapter in particular.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I agree that these women are adults & that this is their fight, and probably didn't tell their parents everything, and that there's certainly some fwap fwapping. But to pooh-pooh all the parents' feelings, especially when many of them were probably paying the (not cheap) sorority dues, is just not realistic. Step out of thinking about it as a sorority member and think about it as a parent. Whether or not they have a legal right to feel that way, it's perfectly understandable that they do.

Why look at it as a parent? Yes, that sounds dismissive, but I'm serious. These are women (not girls) who took obligations to do certain things and not do other things. They took those obligations freely. Some knew when they took on the obligation that they were not paying for them, but where they get the money to participate is purely between themselves and the money-givers (presumably the parents). The parents are not members, did not take those obligations, and have no skin in the game.

It's not a "legal right to feel that way" -- it's recognizing that they have every right to feel whatever they do; they have no legal right to act on it.