"Texas fraternity's gunfire leads to brief police standoff"

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by NWguy

Also, I'll assume most of these men were novice gun users and that makes it even riskier.

Assuming most of these men were novice gun users in rural Texas is a pretty bold assumption.

[rockwallgreek]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Assuming most of these men were novice gun users in rural Texas is a pretty bold assumption.

Kevin's point is very well taken. This is Texas. My grandchildren shoot with their daddies. They comprise 3 girls and 1 boy. The youngest girl doesn't, she's too little. My four sons in law, my four daughters, myself and my husband all have our Concealed Carry License. I have chosen not to carry. By the time my grandchildren are 18 they know all about guns, how to take care if them, etc. this is Texas and how we live day to day. Now as a Sister who can approve or disapprove an event, I would be very Leary about approval with just the basic info. I'd add a lot of questions

[NWguy]

Okay, let's say they were all experienced with handling guns (hard to believe, but I'll go with it), so what were they shooting at in the dark? At a firing range, there are targets - i.e. clay bunnies - that you can visibly see in daylight, but in the dark?

I understand guns are part of the Texas culture, but I haven't heard of California fraternities planning a surfing outing, or Colorado fraternities coordinating a rockclimbing outing. The liability if someone was to get hurt - by participating in something potentially dangerous that was organized as a chapter outing (vs. some of the guys going out on their own) - would weigh heavily on the chapter. They could've been sued for liability, had someone been accidentally shot.

[Kevin]

As far as liability goes, we have insurance. As far as participating willingly in inherently risky endeavors, there's a thing called "assumption of the risk" which mostly protects organizations such as ours for the risky and ultimately harmful decisions some of our members make while at organized functions. I don't really care about all of that though.

In this case, what we know is that guns were fired and that an initiation ceremony was held. We also know that there were a few guns seized (which is routine) and that there were some low level citations. We know that there is an investigation ongoing and it's likely that's all we'll ever know.

I don't necessarily see a huge liability issue here absent other factors and of course, depending on the acreage of the land. My assumption, which I think is much safer than yours, is that young men in rural Texas firing guns are relatively harmless.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by NWguy

Okay, let's say they were all experienced with handling guns (hard to believe, but I'll go with it), so what were they shooting at in the dark? At a firing range, there are targets - i.e. clay bunnies - that you can visibly see in daylight, but in the dark?

I understand guns are part of the Texas culture, but I haven't heard of California fraternities planning a surfing outing, or Colorado fraternities coordinating a rockclimbing outing. The liability if someone was to get hurt - by participating in something potentially dangerous that was organized as a chapter outing (vs. some of the guys going out on their own) - would weigh heavily on the chapter. They could've been sued for liability, had someone been accidentally shot.

1) why is it so hard to believe? Just because it's outside your (perhaps narrow, based on your posts) area of exposure or knowledge means nothing.

2) again, just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it didn't occur. It just didn't cross your radar, or get any press, or whatever. Point in fact: a sorority I advised did an "adventure challenge" course involving rock climbing, zip lines, and various other activities. Did you know that? I don't think so. It happened. You just didn't hear about it. We didn't tell you.

As for a surfing outing, oh my gosh. You have got to be kidding me. We forgot to tell you about that too, apparently.

You might want to broaden your perspective a bit. And not stereotype locales while you're at it. I'm actually agreeing with Kevin, so I'm going to take a screen shot just to prove that this really happened.

[rockwallgreek]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

1) why is it so hard to believe? Just because it's outside your (perhaps narrow, based on your posts) area of exposure or knowledge means nothing.

2) again, just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it didn't occur. It just didn't cross your radar, or get any press, or whatever. Point in fact: a sorority I advised did an "adventure challenge" course involving rock climbing, zip lines, and various other activities. Did you know that? I don't think so. It happened. You just didn't hear about it. We didn't tell you.

As for a surfing outing, oh my gosh. You have got to be kidding me. We forgot to tell you about that too, apparently.

You might want to broaden your perspective a bit. And not stereotype locales while you're at it. I'm actually agreeing with Kevin, so I'm going to take a screen shot just to prove that this really happened.

Thank you AZ Theta!! My grandson shoots targets with his daddy, a Federal Marshal, with a 22 at age 2 and a half. That is normal in rural areas of Texas. As an Alumna and Volunteer Service Team member, I don't know if I would approve such an activity on the West Coast, where I was born and raised, but here I probably would. Girls shoot too!

[NWguy]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

1) why is it so hard to believe? Just because it's outside your (perhaps narrow, based on your posts) area of exposure or knowledge means nothing.

2) again, just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it didn't occur. It just didn't cross your radar, or get any press, or whatever. Point in fact: a sorority I advised did an "adventure challenge" course involving rock climbing, zip lines, and various other activities. Did you know that? I don't think so. It happened. You just didn't hear about it. We didn't tell you.

As for a surfing outing, oh my gosh. You have got to be kidding me. We forgot to tell you about that too, apparently.

You might want to broaden your perspective a bit. And not stereotype locales while you're at it. I'm actually agreeing with Kevin, so I'm going to take a screen shot just to prove that this really happened.

Guess there's no such thing as a friendly, rational conversation on here. "Perhaps narrow, based on your posts" - that's low. I find that offensive, actually.

If we disagree about something, that's fine. But I'm not going to put you down for it, make you feel like a coward.

I don't find this particular story/topic to have a right or wrong, however I do think that this "outing" would not fly in many other parts of the country. I would have never signed off on it; even with the slightest risk factor, there are other things to do, I'm sure, in Texas.

[Sciencewoman]

I do think the liability insurance issue is genuine. As a house corp. president, I get the update emails from the insurance agency that is used by most NPC groups and they're on ultra-alert for all kinds of potential lawsuit issues...on and off property. The potential for increased rates and claims has dictated sorority policy changes in several areas. I just don't think this chapter's insurance carrier would be thrilled with this event.

[NWguy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As far as liability goes, we have insurance. As far as participating willingly in inherently risky endeavors, there's a thing called "assumption of the risk" which mostly protects organizations such as ours for the risky and ultimately harmful decisions some of our members make while at organized functions. I don't really care about all of that though.

In this case, what we know is that guns were fired and that an initiation ceremony was held. We also know that there were a few guns seized (which is routine) and that there were some low level citations. We know that there is an investigation ongoing and it's likely that's all we'll ever know.

I don't necessarily see a huge liability issue here absent other factors and of course, depending on the acreage of the land. My assumption, which I think is much safer than yours, is that young men in rural Texas firing guns are relatively harmless.

Kevin, thank you for discussing this in a rational manner without trying to make me feel like an idiot. I think we can agree to disagree, but I respect your points.

[Sororitysock]

Originally Posted by NWguy

I would have never signed off on it; even with the slightest risk factor,

Really? Suddenly you're a fraternity adviser when a couple of weeks ago you didn't even know how to donate your discarded furniture to your chapter or whether or not they would want it.

You repeatedly make posts acting incredulous about Greek happenings and campuses when it is clear you haven't been involved with your fraternity post-college and those other people are very active in their organizations on local, national and conference levels.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by Sororitysock

Really? Suddenly you're a fraternity adviser when a couple of weeks ago you didn't even know how to donate your discarded furniture to your chapter or whether or not they would want it.

You repeatedly make posts acting incredulous about Greek happenings and campuses when it is clear you haven't been involved with your fraternity post-college and those other people are very active in their organizations on local, national and conference levels.

And Greekchat doesn't have room for all points of view? And inquiries from Greeks of all ages and all points of the globe? (tulip86 and the posters from Indonesia and England, thinking of you)

SS, I temporarily removed you from my GC ignore list here to see whether you posted something worthwhile. In this case, again, not. So back to the ignore list you go.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by NWguy

Guess there's no such thing as a friendly, rational conversation on here. "Perhaps narrow, based on your posts" - that's low. I find that offensive, actually.

If we disagree about something, that's fine. But I'm not going to put you down for it, make you feel like a coward.

I don't find this particular story/topic to have a right or wrong, however I do think that this "outing" would not fly in many other parts of the country. I would have never signed off on it; even with the slightest risk factor, there are other things to do, I'm sure, in Texas.

You're connecting dots that aren't even in the same time zone, for the love of Mike. Sorry I'm not sorry. NEWS FLASH: I can't make you feel anything. I don't have that kind of power. That's on you, not me. Nope. Not my issue. Seems there's something else at play here.

By the looks of things, you don't like it when someone disagrees with you, or doesn't say something the way you want to hear it; and you take umbrage at what you perceive to be a slight, or any comment that isn't bathed in sugar and kid gloves. You won't get much rainbow blowing here, so if that's what you need, you're going to be disappointed.

Hint: there's a great feature on GC where you can ignore a poster. I suggest you put me on your ignore list so I won't hurt your feelings ever again. Others probably will, but I won't.

[Ag_Sis]

"The group didn't surrender when police shouted out instructions over a loudspeaker. So about 25 officers entered the ranch."

I'm guessing that this is the crux of the issue here. That, and the fact that the gunshots were heard at night and the police were called after midnight.

There's no issue here in Texas for a few friends to get together in daylight and shoot some clays. BUT gunshots in the middle of the night plus not heeding police instructions plus the high possibility of alcohol being involved.

This issue also goes beyond whether or not these guys know how to properly handle the guns. The gunshots beg the question of what exactly what they were shooting at. Target shooting in the middle of the night with potentially drunk people walking around sounds like a terrible idea. Shooting straight up in the air, Arab Spring-celebration style sounds equally harebrained.

Those guys are lucky that things didn't escalate when they didn't immediately respond to the police's instructions.

[Kevin]

I love that there's just not enough information in the article to really figure out what happened here.

"The group didn't surrender when police shouted instructions over a loudspeaker."

This occurred on a ranch. Were the men inside or outside when the police arrived? How far away were police? Were there trees or obstacles obstructing views?

There's not a single mention of alcohol. You would think that the police might have mentioned underage drinking if underage drinking was going on. Again, if we're talking about rural Texas, despite stereotypes and especially with nary a word from any party regarding alcohol, to simply assume it was there is borderline offensive.

[DubaiSis]

Things may have changed A.LOT. since I was in college but there is (was) a pretty clear if/then statement of If fraternity get together Then alcohol. That's not about Texas or about people on ranches or people who like guns. It's about fraternities. Maybe it's wrong and maybe it's offensive, but that is the only reality most of us know in that respect.

We are missing a bunch of information here, but I think it is pretty safe to say gun use is a huge liability. Yes, accidents happen even in the most careful of situations. And as an advisor (I'm not one right now) the only and I mean ONLY way I'd approve an event like that would be at a licensed facility so that they could take the liability, not me. Bunch of angels who never did anything wrong who want to go shoot guns on private property after dark? No. There is just no reason why this is an option a legitimate function needs. And the reality is these guys are probably not a bunch of angels; they're normal college age kids who need way more adult supervision than they think.