well, I have been given the duty...

[AOIIBrandi]

One of my close friends in college had 2 that I know of. We are also no longer friends for reasons having nothing to do with this issue.

[Katey Alpha Gam]

I had a thought on this for people to ponder. Do you think that abortions will END if you outlaw them???? They won't. Just as they still happened before Roe v. Wade, they would happen again, only they would go back to back alley abortions with shady doctors, dirty equipment, and a lot of pain and death for women. The stories of wire coat hangers in a kitchen aren't a dream. These things actually happened and women actually DIED because of it, the fetuses would be born as children and have limbs missing. I argue that they would never stop b/c they've been around for hundreds of thousands of years all throughout the world in all cultures. I am very glad that Roe v. Wade has given me my right to decide what's best for me and I will continue to fight for it.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by librasoul22
Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

I know two girls who have had abortions.

That said...I don't think you can take away a woman's right to make such a choice. As I have begun to re-evaluate many of my political feelings, this is one that has not changed.

Collin

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
That said, I am pro-Life. Why? Because I believe that the unborn child is a life from the moment of conception. Many people will choose to argue "if it can't live outside the mother than its not a baby." However, even after a child is born, it cannot live without assistance from someone, something.

I don't see birth control failing as an excuse for an abortion. If a woman chooses to have sex, even with birth control, she knows that pregnancy is still a possible outcome, a consequence of the choice.

Abortion is a selfish act; its the antethisis of motherhood, which is selflessness. And when it all comes down to it, the purpose of women is to be mothers. I don't mean barefoot and pregnant, 18 kids with one on the way...I mean the biological purpose of the female gender is to carry a child to further the human race. It makes me very sad to see many women killing another person, a part of themselves.

I have a few questions --

Upon what do you base your belief that the "unborn child" is a life from the moment of conception? If it's religion, do you think that religion is a valid basis for law?

That seems pretty harsh to put it all on the woman -- to say that if she has sex, even with birth control, it's just a risk she has to take. What if she's addicted to drugs? What if she's in an abusive relationship? Why do you feel that YOU get to make that decision for her? If I cross the street and get hit by a car, have I taken that risk so that even if I'm *really* careful and I look both ways, I have no case against the person who hit me because I knew that getting hit was a possible (however remote, say there was a 1% chance, about the same failure rate as the birth control pill) outcome?

I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that by saying you are "pro-life" you mean that you would advocate passage of laws that would PROHIBIT women from obtaining abortions. Is your reasoning for this partially based on the fact that you view abortion as a selfish act? It seems that you are saying that abortion is a selfish act, and therefore it should not be allowed. That seems to me to be a pretty dangerous place for the law to go -- what other things are selfish and should be outlawed? What if you think it's selfish of me to buy a new Louis Vuitton handbag instead of donating my money to charity? Can there be a law against that?

I would actually assert (and I'm sure I won't make many friends by saying this) that HAVING children is an inherently SELFISH act. With the overpopulation in the world today, the destruction of natural resources and the pollution caused by overpopulation, having children is just adding to the problem. Can I advocate a law (like in China) where people would be prohibited from having more than one child, because I think it's selfish? Of course I wouldn't, because I think that to have or not have children is a PERSONAL choice, and I respect anyone's decision on the matter whether I personally agree with it or not.

I agree with what (I think it was) KSigRC said -- that if you're going to argue that it's the position of women to carry a child to further the human race, than it is also the position of men to have sex with as many people as possible to spread their seed or whatever. So do you advocate monogamy, because really isn't monogamy in conflict with the biological purpose of men? While in general I understand (although disagree with) what you're saying about women and carrying children to further the human race, I think that our society is to a point now where furthering the human race isn't so important. There are already WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE. Is it really our job to add to that without considering the consequences to our planet, just because of biology?

I think the point I'm trying to make is that you have your reasons for being anti-choice, and I have my reasons for being pro-choice. What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that each person should be able to decide for herself what is best in a given situation, which is why I wouldn't try to propose a law prohibiting someone from giving birth to 20 children, even though I find that selfish. That's on her, and who am I to tell her that she can't do it?

[Tom Earp]

I for one cannot say yea or nay!

Just this week, a women gave birth o n I - 35 and it was a miracoulous thing!

Then come to find out, she gave a phoney name! She was a Dope Head!

Hell now her 6 other kids are with the state and the youngest , new born, one that they found drugs in the system is also under protective custody!

What does one do?

If one cant afford to get pregnit, then why not try birth control if even a Prostitute!

Why bring into this world now! Hell we are in a world of Crap and it does not look to get any better! At least at the moment!

Because of Federal Laws, the Parents cannot correct the Kids, the Parents think the teachers should! Well they cannot either! So what do you do , you kick out the kids ande they become gang bangers who have no respect for life or property!

Prove me wrong, No have seen it!

If you have not then get head out of sand! What a shame we have come to!

[juniorgrrl]

Originally posted by valkyrie


I have a few questions --

Upon what do you base your belief that the "unborn child" is a life from the moment of conception? If it's religion, do you think that religion is a valid basis for law?

I believe that its a life from the moment of conception, because that's just what it is. I can't see how something "non-living" could continue to grow into a child if its non-living. Two living things (sperm and egg) merge to form another living thing.

That seems pretty harsh to put it all on the woman -- to say that if she has sex, even with birth control, it's just a risk she has to take... If I cross the street and get hit by a car, have I taken that risk so that even if I'm *really* careful and I look both ways, I have no case against the person who hit me because I knew that getting hit was a possible (however remote, say there was a 1% chance, about the same failure rate as the birth control pill) outcome?

This is faulty logic. The person who hit you acted in a negligent manner. However, if birth control fails, the fetus is not responsible; it is the result - an "injury" from the "accident."

I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that by saying you are "pro-life" you mean that you would advocate passage of laws that would PROHIBIT women from obtaining abortions. Is your reasoning for this partially based on the fact that you view abortion as a selfish act? It seems that you are saying that abortion is a selfish act, and therefore it should not be allowed. That seems to me to be a pretty dangerous place for the law to go -- what other things are selfish and should be outlawed? What if you think it's selfish of me to buy a new Louis Vuitton handbag instead of donating my money to charity? Can there be a law against that?

Yes, I think abortion is a selfish act, but that should not be the basis of the law. I believe that there should be laws against abortion because I believe it is murder.

I agree with what (I think it was) KSigRC said -- that if you're going to argue that it's the position of women to carry a child to further the human race, than it is also the position of men to have sex with as many people as possible to spread their seed or whatever. So do you advocate monogamy, because really isn't monogamy in conflict with the biological purpose of men?

The law recognizes that a man must support his offspring - whether or not it is with a monogomous partner. Its interesting that when the man acts in the name of biology by creating a child, he must support it. However, when the woman becomes pregnant with this child, she is not required to support it - she is given the right to kill it.

[Rudey]

And what if it's a "potential for life"? I thought people started using that phrase to avoid debates on this little detail.

-Rudey
--Continue please

[PSUSigKap]

i'll be Republican-ProChoice # 8!

anyway, i've known someone who's had an abortion. she doesn't regret it. yes it affected her and she thought long and hard about it, but she feels she made the right decision for her.

also an interesting fact, Sarah Weddington, who argued the case for Roe in Roe v. Wade, was a sigma kappa.

[thesweetestone]

I am pro choice. Completely. It's not my business what other people do with their bodies. I say have as many as you want. You are the one that has to deal with it not me.

[SilverTurtle]

A lot of what I think has been stated already. Personally, I think that abortion as a means of birth control is wrong. And I think that I would have a hard time deciding to have an abortion for any reason. But, I have never been in a situation where I had to consider it. And, if I'm honest with myself, I would consider it in certain circumstances. Doubt I could go through with it, but I would consider it as an option.

When my mom was pregnant with my little sister, she was having a lot of unrelated medical problems that were seriously risking her life. The doctors tried to talk her into an abortion, and she wouldn't even consider it. She actually flatlined twice the night she had my sister, but they both made it through just fine in the long run.

It was dangerous for her to keep my sister. She had other children and her husband to consider, given the likelihood that she would have died, etc. I'm so happy that I have my sister now! But I'm also glad that that was a choice for her and my father to make. And no one else's.

When I was young, I was pro-life 'cause that's what I was suppossed to be, good church kid and all. But I get so frustrated with pro-lifers! Lately, they have rented these trucks the size of small U-Hauls and plastered images of aborted fetuses on them. They drive by my work like 5 times in one day. It's gross and I don't want to see it. And it's not changing my mind... in fact, it's making me feel more strongly that my pro-choice stance is right. <--- that was just my little rant about those stupid trucks. Sorry.

[DWAlphaGam]

*Bump*

BTW, excellent post, valkyrie! I agree.

[DeeGeePee]

Well, I'm glad that I decided to click on this topic.

I have thought on this many times before, and I can see the issue from various stand points, which I will put out there then tell yall how I personally feel.

I do feel how some of you were saying how pro choice isn't necessarily pro abortion. That is true to an extent.

You can look at it in these ways:
1) The government says whether or not you can take someone's life (murder). Murder is illegal. Some can argue that an abortion is murder.

2) Abortion is not murder in that at the point an abortion is done, the child is still an embryo/fetus, and not "technically" a person

3) Abortion keeps unwanted children from being thrown away (litterally), abused and thrown through an overpopulated foster care system.

4) There are MANY families who cannot have children who would LOVE to take the babies

5) Many women think they can handle it, have the abortion, then are tormented and emotionally distraught the rest of their lives.

6) An abortion is a medical procedure and has risks involved. SHould your uteus become damaged in the procedure, you may not be able to have kids when you WANT to have them.

7) Its our bodies, we should be able to say what we do with them.

8) At 7-8 weeks, a fetus has a beating heart that is pumping blood through out its body.

Those are some of the more basic arguments. This is how I personally see the issue.

I am pro life. I feel that AS SOON as that sperm hits the egg, life begins. No matter how small, it is life (see #8). I know from personal experience how it feels to become pregnant and know that things in your life are not ready to receive a child. But, when you have sex you know what the risks are, you know what could happen (or should). And when you choose to lay down with someone, you accept the responsibility for that. I knew that when I chose to have sex what could happen. And when it did I accepted the responsibility of my actions. Case closed. Abortion wasn't even a thought. I love my daughter dearly and I can't even THINK about how my life would have been if I had gotten rid of her.

There was a documentary out where they inserted special cameras into a woman's uterus so they could film an abortion from the inside. When the knife came close to the baby, the baby visible shied away from the knife on several tries. The woman having the abortion wasn't allowed to see the video until it was over (the doctor could see it on a little screen), and the woman burst into tears. That really messed her up. At that young an age, the baby already knew how to fight to survive. And I'm sorry, but you will never catch me having one. I know too many who have and regret it with all their hearts.

As far as the government having the "right" to tell us what to do, that's their job, that's why they're the "government". Everything we can or cannot do is decided on by the government. The only say we really get is in deciding who is IN the government. They tell us everything to do, even things that are PERSONAL, like where you can smoke, or that you HAVE to wear clothes in public. These things are laws found to be in the best interest of the people by the representatives we elected. We don't live in a FREE country, or else we wouldn't have ANY laws. We live in an ordered country that we ordered, instead of just one person telling us what to do.

Besides which my religious beliefs don't coinside with abortion.

**sorry to get all militant I was in the moment **

[KSig RC]

FOR THE 'PRO-LIFERS' (as it were):

How do you justify the comment, "Life begins as soon as the sperm hits the egg," for yourself personally?

How do you justify this comment, then, as far as applicable laws? ie medically and legally defining an exact moment when 'life begins' since conception can't be pinpointed.

-----

The reason for these questions is that I'm more interested in the legal basis for abortion than each person's individual feelings (more on that later).

The reasoning here is that, with a legal definition of 'death' there are certain vital signs that can be pointed to and utilized - sensory perception/motor control, heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, but obviously this becomes more complex when making a law with regard to a fetus.

For me, the bottom line (from a scientific standpoint) is still that the baby's INDIVIDUAL life begins with birth - until then, it is undeniably interwoven with the life of the mother. End the mother's life, and the baby will die unless immediately birthed (thus beginning its individual life!).

To say that life begins at conception is an appeal to an anonymous authority - a logical fallacy, which makes the statement an opinion. I don't think, personally, that we can base such a law on an opinion of when life begins - as such, I feel that the law should reflect this, and allow the right to choose.

Whether or not I personally want to have an abortion doesn't factor into my decision to allow others to choose. To me, this doesn't boil down to 'saving the babies' - it's a matter of the legality of limiting a person's rights.

[Rudey]

It's not life...it's the potential for life.

-Rudey

Originally posted by KSig RC
FOR THE 'PRO-LIFERS' (as it were):

How do you justify the comment, "Life begins as soon as the sperm hits the egg," for yourself personally?

How do you justify this comment, then, as far as applicable laws? ie medically and legally defining an exact moment when 'life begins' since conception can't be pinpointed.

-----

The reason for these questions is that I'm more interested in the legal basis for abortion than each person's individual feelings (more on that later).

The reasoning here is that, with a legal definition of 'death' there are certain vital signs that can be pointed to and utilized - sensory perception/motor control, heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, but obviously this becomes more complex when making a law with regard to a fetus.

For me, the bottom line (from a scientific standpoint) is still that the baby's INDIVIDUAL life begins with birth - until then, it is undeniably interwoven with the life of the mother. End the mother's life, and the baby will die unless immediately birthed (thus beginning its individual life!).

To say that life begins at conception is an appeal to an anonymous authority - a logical fallacy, which makes the statement an opinion. I don't think, personally, that we can base such a law on an opinion of when life begins - as such, I feel that the law should reflect this, and allow the right to choose.

Whether or not I personally want to have an abortion doesn't factor into my decision to allow others to choose. To me, this doesn't boil down to 'saving the babies' - it's a matter of the legality of limiting a person's rights.

[Katey Alpha Gam]

Originally posted by KSig RC
FOR THE 'PRO-LIFERS' (as it were):

How do you justify the comment, "Life begins as soon as the sperm hits the egg," for yourself personally?

How do you justify this comment, then, as far as applicable laws? ie medically and legally defining an exact moment when 'life begins' since conception can't be pinpointed.

-----

The reason for these questions is that I'm more interested in the legal basis for abortion than each person's individual feelings (more on that later).

The reasoning here is that, with a legal definition of 'death' there are certain vital signs that can be pointed to and utilized - sensory perception/motor control, heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, but obviously this becomes more complex when making a law with regard to a fetus.

For me, the bottom line (from a scientific standpoint) is still that the baby's INDIVIDUAL life begins with birth - until then, it is undeniably interwoven with the life of the mother. End the mother's life, and the baby will die unless immediately birthed (thus beginning its individual life!).

To say that life begins at conception is an appeal to an anonymous authority - a logical fallacy, which makes the statement an opinion. I don't think, personally, that we can base such a law on an opinion of when life begins - as such, I feel that the law should reflect this, and allow the right to choose.

Whether or not I personally want to have an abortion doesn't factor into my decision to allow others to choose. To me, this doesn't boil down to 'saving the babies' - it's a matter of the legality of limiting a person's rights.

Well said!!! Also I think it is important to note that you really can't say if life begins when the sperm hits the egg b/c NOBODY has that figured out yet. I also want to note that Parasites grow the same way that a fetus does and do the same thing a fetus does such as feeding off the nutrients and life force of it's host. Should we not kill parasites either b/c their alive too??? Where do you draw the line on what is and is not ok to end the life of. Do you eat veal?? Do you kill bugs??? If there was a parasite in your body that you didn't want even if it was alive b/c it's breathing and living off of you and has a life force, would you say "but it's alive so I can't get rid of it"?????? If I got pregnant tomorrow, it would be an unwanted thing growing inside of me, feeding off of me. I'd consider that to be a good definition of a parasite and I'd treat it as such. If you got a tape worm, would you kill it?? B/c it's alive and it's feeding off of you so it must be ok to keep by your definition of a life in a body right????????