Yale's Comprehensive Sexual Misconduct Guide

[honorgal]

Where does she say that she had ever suffered a physical assault from this guy and was afraid of another one? On the contrary, she specifically says she was too tired to say no the second time he tried to initiate sex.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Where does she say that she had ever suffered a physical assault from this guy and was afraid of another one? On the contrary, she specifically says she was too tired to say no the second time he tried to initiate sex.

Where does anyone say that physical assault has to be involved for a rape to occur? She said no. Why does she have to keep saying it? She never gave consent, yet he had sex with her. AFTER she had already said no. Again, I ask you: If this isn't rape, then what is it?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Where does anyone say that physical assault has to be involved for a rape to occur? She said no. Why does she have to keep saying it? She never gave consent, yet he had sex with her. AFTER she had already said no. Again, I ask you: If this isn't rape, then what is it?

You brought up physical assault and asked if it's only rape if she physically fights back. I'm simply pointing out that it's not germane to this particular set of facts

[squirrely girl]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Where does she say that she had ever suffered a physical assault from this guy and was afraid of another one? On the contrary, she specifically says she was too tired to say no the second time he tried to initiate sex.

Since when does rape require some physical assault above and beyond sex without consent? Stop turning rape into some kind of suffering olympics.

The last thing she said was no... seeing as he didn't get a yes after that, he raped her.

I respect what you and your husband have apparently established as cool for your relationship. Just stop expecting everybody else to be cool with it. A three-month relationship is NOT the same as a marriage on any measurable metric.

You're promoting "if she says no, just wear her down until she stops saying no" and it's irresponsible as shit.

[joliebelle]

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

Since when does rape require some physical assault above and beyond sex without consent? Stop turning rape into some kind of suffering olympics.

The last thing she said was no... seeing as he didn't get a yes after that, he raped her.

I respect what you and your husband have apparently established as cool for your relationship. Just stop expecting everybody else to be cool with it. A three-month relationship is NOT the same as a marriage on any measurable metric.

You're promoting "if she says no, just wear her down until she stops saying no" and it's irresponsible as shit.

All of this. The absence of consent is not consent. And can we stop calling rape anything other than rape?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

You're promoting "if she says no, just wear her down until she stops saying no" and it's irresponsible as shit.

I'm doing no such thing. In fact, it's you who is being irresponsible as shit.

[LAblondeGPhi]

I tried to express it in my post above, but I'll be more explicit:

Originally Posted by honorgal

She "basically said no" (those are her words, according to the mag article) and he stopped. He then tried to initiate sex again and she was "too tired" to "basically" say no again. This is a common scenario in bedrooms across America every single night. I wouldn't call it rape. But if it is, my husband and I are both guilty.

Originally Posted by AGDee

I absolutely call it rape and when it happened to me, my first call the next morning was to a divorce attorney. I couldn't call the police because, at that time, spousal rape was legal. It didn't mean I had to put up with it. If I say NO to a man and he continues to try and I'm not able to fight him, it is absolutely rape. Are you saying it's only rape if you physically fight back? Because that's also one way to suffer additional physical assault. Sometime the least traumatic thing to do is to be passive and hope it's over quickly. That doesn't mean it isn't rape.

I'm kind of appalled that you think it is ok just because it is your husband.

AGDee - I'm sincerely sorry that this happened to you. That's an experience that no one - wife or otherwise - should have to experience. I'm glad that you were able to get out of that relationship, and that you are in a better place today.

That said, I think we can agree that honorgal was talking about a different type of interaction that is much more typical in marriages - one that eventually results in consensual sex even if a verbal "OK" or "Yes" isn't explicitly given.

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

I respect what you and your husband have apparently established as cool for your relationship. Just stop expecting everybody else to be cool with it. A three-month relationship is NOT the same as a marriage on any measurable metric.

That seems like a pretty creepy and unfair assumption you made there. Way to not even TRY to understand what she was saying.

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

You're promoting "if she says no, just wear her down until she stops saying no" and it's irresponsible as shit.

I don't think she was promoting anything of the kind. I DO think, however, that this attitude is far too prevalent in our society, and one of the contributing factors to the most difficult-to-interpret sexual assault cases.

I didn't initially set out to get all defend-y about honorgal's position, but I gotta say that I think she's one of the few people in this thread to point out how damn not black-and-white the world is. There's a reason this is a complex issue.

I'm all for teaching our young men that "no means no", but I don't think the burden is on men alone. There are plenty of norms, cultural feedback, and yes - some women - who feed into the notion that women are always playing hard to get. Note: I am NOT saying that some women play hard to get and then are "asking" for mistreatment.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

I tried to express it in my post above, but I'll be more explicit:





AGDee - I'm sincerely sorry that this happened to you. That's an experience that no one - wife or otherwise - should have to experience. I'm glad that you were able to get out of that relationship, and that you are in a better place today.

That said, I think we can agree that honorgal was talking about a different type of interaction that is much more typical in marriages - one that eventually results in consensual sex even if a verbal "OK" or "Yes" isn't explicitly given.



That seems like a pretty creepy and unfair assumption you made there. Way to not even TRY to understand what she was saying.


I don't think she was promoting anything of the kind. I DO think, however, that this attitude is far too prevalent in our society, and one of the contributing factors to the most difficult-to-interpret sexual assault cases.

I didn't initially set out to get all defend-y about honorgal's position, but I gotta say that I think she's one of the few people in this thread to point out how damn not black-and-white the world is. There's a reason this is a complex issue.

I'm all for teaching our young men that "no means no", but I don't think the burden is on men alone. There are plenty of norms, cultural feedback, and yes - some women - who feed into the notion that women are always playing hard to get. Note: I am NOT saying that some women play hard to get and then are "asking" for mistreatment.

I generally agree with what you have written, but I would say it doesnt apply with respect to predator rapists. They arent going to be amenable to messages about consent and enthusiasm. Fortunately, the vast, vast majority of men are not rapists. Unfortunately, conflating those evil predators with the guy in the Swarthmore story is not going to make it easier to lock up the rapists where they belong. It's making it more difficult.

The burden used to be on women to restrain male desire. Society didn't recognize the legitimacy of female desire. We have come a long long way from that society. Is it universal? No, of course not. But nowhere is the liberation and equality of women encouraged, celebrated and taken as a given than on our college campuses. On average, these young women and men are the most privileged and enlightened and equal generation in the history of the world. But then we come to the subject of sex, or vulgar behavior or hurt feelings, and extreme feminists start swooning and fainting on behalf of these poor, delicate co-ed flowers. It's offensive to me that some are encouraging the complete lack of agency, the total passiveness, of the girl in the Swarthmore story, by insisting that it be called and adjudicated as rape.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Where does she say that she had ever suffered a physical assault from this guy and was afraid of another one? On the contrary, she specifically says she was too tired to say no the second time he tried to initiate sex.

If you have already said no with your words, then the only next way to say no is with fighting it physically which absolutely puts a woman at more risk. Most women are smaller than the man, less physically strong, and if they physically resist, then they are more likely to become physically assaulted as well as sexually assaulted.