Ferguson, MO

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by pbear19

It's amazing to me how much hate and anger some people carry around with them.

On both sides of the case, that's true. The demonization of Wilson and the turning of Brown into some sort of martyr has polarized the case such that I doubt any good can come of it. As I understand it, St. Louis law enforcement took the Rams' gesture as a big 'ol eff u.

Most law enforcement officers are trying to do their job. In this case, what we know for a fact is that we had an officer who was trying to apprehend a criminal and we know the criminal resisted.

Police officers, especially in St. Louis probably have very little problem stepping into the shoes of Darren Wilson. They see how the community rose up against Wilson, threatening his life, his family's life and taking away his livelihood because he [in the eyes of most law enforcement personnel] did his job and arguably had to defend himself from a suspect who was capable of killing him.

Now consider that some of these bars probably have law enforcement officers as a large part of their clientele and you might come to the conclusion that the decision to express this level of angst over what a few Rams players did is economical more than ideological.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

On both sides of the case, that's true. The demonization of Wilson and the turning of Brown into some sort of martyr has polarized the case such that I doubt any good can come of it. As I understand it, St. Louis law enforcement took the Rams' gesture as a big 'ol eff u.

Most law enforcement officers are trying to do their job. In this case, what we know for a fact is that we had an officer who was trying to apprehend a criminal and we know the criminal resisted.

Police officers, especially in St. Louis probably have very little problem stepping into the shoes of Darren Wilson. They see how the community rose up against Wilson, threatening his life, his family's life and taking away his livelihood because he [in the eyes of most law enforcement personnel] did his job and arguably had to defend himself from a suspect who was capable of killing him.

Now consider that some of these bars probably have law enforcement officers as a large part of their clientele and you might come to the conclusion that the decision to express this level of angst over what a few Rams players did is economical more than ideological.

If you take Wilson's version of the facts as true, it still doesn't reflect well on him. Even if his versions of the facts are true, we know that he mismanaged the situation badly. Officers are trained to avoid putting themselves in situations where they need to use their guns. All Wilson had to do was call for expedited back-up, watch where Brown and Johnson went, and then confront them from a safe distance. He shouldn't have confronted them alone. He shouldn't have confronted them as aggressively as he did. He shouldn't have confronted them at the short distance that he did. It was terrible policing. Now Brown is dead and Wilson is out of a job and Ferguson has had multiple businesses burned.

That said, I was very happy to hear Obama endorse more training and uniform "use of force" policies for any agency that wants to use military surplus. That will improve many police departments and is a useful carrot to start addressing this situation.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by KDCat

If you take Wilson's version of the facts as true, it still doesn't reflect well on him. Even if his versions of the facts are true, we know that he mismanaged the situation badly. Officers are trained to avoid putting themselves in situations where they need to use their guns. All Wilson had to do was call for expedited back-up, watch where Brown and Johnson went, and then confront them from a safe distance. He shouldn't have confronted them alone. He shouldn't have confronted them as aggressively as he did. He shouldn't have confronted them at the short distance that he did. It was terrible policing. Now Brown is dead and Wilson is out of a job and Ferguson has had multiple businesses burned.

That said, I was very happy to hear Obama endorse more training and uniform "use of force" policies for any agency that wants to use military surplus. That will improve many police departments and is a useful carrot to start addressing this situation.

So the part in bold honestly made me LOL and face palm at the same time. That's a great strategy if you are in a controlled setting void of variables and the interactions of others. What you described as good policing reads to me as someone who is afraid to do their job as a police officer and is willing to let suspects get away. Police don't always have the luxury of "expedited back-up" and officers need to react to situations as they arise.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So the part in bold honestly made me LOL and face palm at the same time. That's a great strategy if you are in a controlled setting void of variables and the interactions of others. What you described as good policing reads to me as someone who is afraid to do their job as a police officer and is willing to let suspects get away. Police don't always have the luxury of "expedited back-up" and officers need to react to situations as they arise.

I almost LOL'd at "expedited back-up." Most people have no idea how, especially in cities like Ferguson, the police presence because of people being spread out or because of a lack of funding isn't near what you'd expect. There's often no such thing as "expedited back-up" and help could be 10-15 minutes or more away.

Maybe "expedited back-up" is a thing up North where cities are more densely populated, but in this part of the world, officers are expected to pretty much be self-sufficient.

[pbear19]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I almost LOL'd at "expedited back-up." Most people have no idea how, especially in cities like Ferguson, the police presence because of people being spread out or because of a lack of funding isn't near what you'd expect. There's often no such thing as "expedited back-up" and help could be 10-15 minutes or more away.

Maybe "expedited back-up" is a thing up North where cities are more densely populated, but in this part of the world, officers are expected to pretty much be self-sufficient.

Kevin, perhaps before you LOL at a St. Louisan's perspective on the number of police available in any given area, you should learn a bit about the area. This isn't Oklahoma. There are 59 police departments in St. Louis County. The city of Ferguson has 54 officers who cover 6 square miles of territory. They can (and do) receive backup from other local municipalities and the County police when necessary.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by pbear19

The city of Ferguson has 54 officers who cover 6 square miles of territory. They can (and do) receive backup from other local municipalities and the County police when necessary.

54 officers do not work 24/7. This means that at any given time, you probably have 15-25 officers to cover 6 square miles of territory. When seconds matter, that just isn't going to get it done.

That is a lot like what we have in OKC as far as coverage.

[ZetaPhi708.20]

Massive protests underway in NYC, primarily at the Rockefeller Tree Lighting; this is after a Staten Island Grand Jury failed to indict the officer responsible for the chokehold death of Eric Garner. Chokeholds were banned by the NYPD in the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/ICantBreathe?src=tren

https://twitter.com/hashtag/EricGarner?src=tren

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I almost LOL'd at "expedited back-up." Most people have no idea how, especially in cities like Ferguson, the police presence because of people being spread out or because of a lack of funding isn't near what you'd expect. There's often no such thing as "expedited back-up" and help could be 10-15 minutes or more away.

Maybe "expedited back-up" is a thing up North where cities are more densely populated, but in this part of the world, officers are expected to pretty much be self-sufficient.

When someone calls for back up you respond ASAP so I guess all back up is expedited in that sense, but it can still be several minutes away. I think NYPD stages officers every few blocks and when they have protests or events they will keep officers on standby around to corner to respond in case things get out of hand. NYPD also has 35,000 officers and a $5B budget so they can afford to do that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Now Brown is dead and Wilson is out of a job and Ferguson has had multiple businesses burned.

Let's be clear--Wilson had nothing to do with businesses being burned down. Let's lay the blame where it belongs--on the thugs and hoodlums who took advantage of a very bad situation where the police can't necessarily protect all of the property at once.

That said, I was very happy to hear Obama endorse more training and uniform "use of force" policies for any agency that wants to use military surplus. That will improve many police departments and is a useful carrot to start addressing this situation.

Sure that's great.