Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree. But my problem, at least in part, is practical: Throwing innocent men of campus does nothing to protect innocent women from being raped. You noted two benefits of removal of the rapist from campus:How does removal of an innocent man from campus stop him from raping if he wasn't raping to begin with? How does it protect the victim?

Of course there's a risk that an innocent person would get kicked off of campus. I just don't see why you feel that is worse than an innocent person getting raped.

ETA: It's not that I don't see the problems inherent in collegiate justice. I do. But until someone comes up with a better suggestion, it's probably the best chance we have of reducing rape.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Of course there's a risk that an innocent person would get kicked off of campus. I just don't see why you feel that is worse than an innocent person getting raped.

I don't see how the two situations are really comparable. The only thing which is actually preventable by a proper system is the not kicking innocent men off out of school. You can't prevent a rape that has already happened.

ETA: It's not that I don't see the problems inherent in collegiate justice. I do. But until someone comes up with a better suggestion, it's probably the best chance we have of reducing rape.

How about state and federal legislation to make sex crimes complaints in university settings mandated reporting like child abuse? I am not comfortable with university administrators handling these issues. We have a criminal justice system for a reason, and if there's not enough evidence to convict criminally, then we shouldn't allow men to be penalized simply for being accused.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't see how the two situations are really comparable. The only thing which is actually preventable by a proper system is the not kicking innocent men off out of school. You can't prevent a rape that has already happened.



How about state and federal legislation to make sex crimes complaints in university settings mandated reporting like child abuse? I am not comfortable with university administrators handling these issues. We have a criminal justice system for a reason, and if there's not enough evidence to convict criminally, then we shouldn't allow men to be penalized simply for being accused.

I'd like clarification on what you mean by mandated reporting? Do you mean mandated reporting to the police/criminal justice system and then let them handle it?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Of course there's a risk that an innocent person would get kicked off of campus. I just don't see why you feel that is worse than an innocent person getting raped.

I have never said an innocent person getting kicked off campus is worse than an innocent person getting raped. I agreed with your statement that an innocent woman getting rated is at least as important as an innocent man getting kicked off campus.

My issue is with a system that increases the likelihood that innocent men will be kicked off campus because that result does nothing to address the problem of an innocent woman having been raped, to punish wrong conduct or to reduce rape.

Kevin, I think your suggestion of a mandatory reporting requirement is an interesting idea to consider.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My issue is with a system that increases the likelihood that innocent men will be kicked off campus because that result does nothing to address the problem of an innocent woman having been raped, to punish wrong conduct or to reduce rape.

That makes no sense whatsoever. You are taking one side effect of a system, saying that particular side effect doesn't contribute to the system's intended purpose, and then concluding that the entire system should be throw out. That's like saying I shouldn't go running because one result of running is that my clothing gets sweaty and sweaty clothing doesn't help me lose weight.

If you want to argue that the side effects outweigh the benefits of the system, fine, but call it what it is.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

That makes no sense whatsoever. You are taking one side effect of a system, saying that particular side effect doesn't contribute to the system's intended purpose, and then concluding that the entire system should be throw out. That's like saying I shouldn't go running because one result of running is that my clothing gets sweaty and sweaty clothing doesn't help me lose weight.

If you want to argue that the side effects outweigh the benefits of the system, fine, but call it what it is.

Do you think we should lower the standard to "preponderance of the evidence" for rapes outside of the campus setting, for women not in college?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

That makes no sense whatsoever. You are taking one side effect of a system, saying that particular side effect doesn't contribute to the system's intended purpose, and then concluding that the entire system should be throw out. That's like saying I shouldn't go running because one result of running is that my clothing gets sweaty and sweaty clothing doesn't help me lose weight.

If you want to argue that the side effects outweigh the benefits of the system, fine, but call it what it is.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand this metaphor.

The point is, you can't punish a person for something they didn't do (which is essentially what you're proposing). This would open a door that no one wants to open, both in terms of rape and many other issues plaguing college campuses.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Well, that would be the sane thing to do, but we are well passed that. It's a crisis.

Ya know when you've heard/read a word over and over again and it eventually just sounds weird? Yea, that.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

That makes no sense whatsoever. You are taking one side effect of a system, saying that particular side effect doesn't contribute to the system's intended purpose, and then concluding that the entire system should be throw out. That's like saying I shouldn't go running because one result of running is that my clothing gets sweaty and sweaty clothing doesn't help me lose weight.

Side effect? Isn't the whole point of the system we're talking about to punish rapists and protect women from them? If innocent men are punished, that's not a side effect—that's a failure of the system to do what it's supposed to be doing. An occasional failure may be unavoidable, but surely the goal should be to try and avoid failures.

In any justice system, there is always the chance that innocent people will be punished, but a competent justice system does what it can to minimize that risk. What you have suggested, as I understand, would increase that risk.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand this metaphor.

The point is, you can't punish a person for something they didn't do (which is essentially what you're proposing). This would open a door that no one wants to open, both in terms of rape and many other issues plaguing college campuses.

Exactly.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Side effect? Isn't the whole point of the system we're talking about to punish rapists and protect women from them? If innocent men are punished, that's not a side effect—that's a failure of the system to do what it's supposed to be doing. An occasional failure may be unavoidable, but surely the goal should be to try and avoid failures.

In any justice system, there is always the chance that innocent people will be punished, but a competent justice system does what it can to minimize that risk. What you have suggested, as I understand, would increase that risk.

No, a competent justice system balances the risk of innocent people being punished against the risk of letting the guilty go without consequences. Minimizing the chance that innocent people will be punished is simple...don't have a justice system at all.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No, a competent justice system balances the risk of innocent people being punished against the risk of letting the guilty go without consequences. Minimizing the chance that innocent people will be punished is simple...don't have a justice system at all.

I feel like you're presenting a little bit of a false dichotomy here, i.e., either we punish more innocent people and consider things better/safer OR we have no justice system at all.

What is wrong with requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

[honorgal]

Blackstone's ratio:

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".

It is individuals who break laws, while government administers justice (by determining guilt).

John Adams explains the importance of this principle:

"It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever".