Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DeltaBetaBaby]

I don't believe the standard for "guilt" should be anywhere near that of the formal judicial system. If the accused is assumed innocent, the accuser is therefore assumed to be lying. Why doesn't the accuser get the benefit of the doubt? You cannot simultaneously believe in the innocence of both parties. If it's his word against hers, SOMEONE is lying.

Now, do I think we should just go around kicking people out of school every time there is an accusation? No. But I think, in a university setting, the burden of proof should be much more akin to that of a civil trial, i.e. 51%, and that they should be able to look at things like patterns of behavior, e.g. if someone is accused three times but none of them can be "proven," you need to look at why this individual keeps getting accused.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't believe the standard for "guilt" should be anywhere near that of the formal judicial system. If the accused is assumed innocent, the accuser is therefore assumed to be lying. Why doesn't the accuser get the benefit of the doubt? You cannot simultaneously believe in the innocence of both parties. If it's his word against hers, SOMEONE is lying.

Now, do I think we should just go around kicking people out of school every time there is an accusation? No. But I think, in a university setting, the burden of proof should be much more akin to that of a civil trial, i.e. 51%, and that they should be able to look at things like patterns of behavior, e.g. if someone is accused three times but none of them can be "proven," you need to look at why this individual keeps getting accused.

The issue is the "specialness" of a college campus. If a college chooses to take action against a student based on their investigation, that is fine, *but* that should be completely separate from whether a criminal investigation occurs. I have no problem with the concept of a Campus Security, but they should *not* have police powers. We would *never* allow Security at a shopping mall to give different justice based on whether one or both of the people involved is a shopper.

If a woman reports a rape, it shouldn't matter whether the event happened on campus, off campus, whether the attacker is a student or whether the woman is.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by naraht

The issue is the "specialness" of a college campus. If a college chooses to take action against a student based on their investigation, that is fine, *but* that should be completely separate from whether a criminal investigation occurs. I have no problem with the concept of a Campus Security, but they should *not* have police powers. We would *never* allow Security at a shopping mall to give different justice based on whether one or both of the people involved is a shopper.

If a woman reports a rape, it shouldn't matter whether the event happened on campus, off campus, whether the attacker is a student or whether the woman is.

Campus Police are real police officers. The problem is that many times there is poor oversight of these cases. I read the NYT article about the Jameis Winston case recently. FSU completely botched that investigation, and it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't protecting their star athlete. Students have no option other than the campus police to pursue justice. If those institutions want to abdugate their responsibilities, other local authorities should be allowed to take over.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Campus Police are real police officers. The problem is that many times there is poor oversight of these cases. I read the NYT article about the Jameis Winston case recently. FSU completely botched that investigation, and it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't protecting their star athlete. Students have no option other than the campus police to pursue justice. If those institutions want to abdugate their responsibilities, other local authorities should be allowed to take over.

On some campuses, Campus Police are real officers.

The problem is, a campus judicial board is not a real court of law.

Our country has a criminal justice system for a reason. I cannot comprehend why campuses are expected to conduct their own separate judicial process.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

On some campuses, Campus Police are real officers.

The problem is, a campus judicial board is not a real court of law.

Our country has a criminal justice system for a reason. I cannot comprehend why campuses are expected to conduct their own separate judicial process.

The criminal justice system is not tasked with protecting the victims in any way. If the college can do that, they should.

[ASTalumna06]

University Of Kansas Considered Community Service Too 'Punitive' For Rape Punishment:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/57316...cs&ir=Politics

[LillyPhi]

This is a very interesting article.....Columbia University student carries mattress until her rapist is finally expelled....

http://nypost.com/2014/09/02/ivy-stu...isnt-expelled/

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by LillyPhi

This is a very interesting article.....Columbia University student carries mattress until her rapist is finally expelled....

http://nypost.com/2014/09/02/ivy-stu...isnt-expelled/

I just came here to post about this. I only had to get a few paragraphs in before I simply couldn't believe what I was reading. Three different women have filed complaints, and this guy is still allowed to stay in school. At what point does it become too much?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-yes-means-yes

While most students at Columbia University will spend the first day of classes carrying backpacks and books, Emma Sulkowicz will start her semester on Tuesday with a far heavier burden. The senior plans on carrying an extra-long, twin-size mattress across the quad and through each New York City building – to every class, every day – until the man she says raped her moves off campus.

“I was raped in my own bed,” Sulkowicz told me the other day, as she was gearing up to head back to school in this, the year American colleges are finally, supposedly, ready to do something about sexual assault. “I could have taken my pillow, but I want people to see how it weighs down a person to be ignored by the school administration and harassed by police.”

Sulkowicz is one of three women who made complaints to Columbia against the same fellow senior, who was found “not responsible” in all three cases. She also filed a police report, but Sulkowicz was treated abysmally – by the cops, and by a Columbia disciplinary panel so uneducated about the scourge of campus violence that one panelist asked how it was possible to be anally raped without lubrication.

Apparently even an Ivy League school still doesn’t understand the old adage of “no means no”.

So Sulkowicz joined a federal complaint in April over Columbia’s mishandling of sexual misconduct cases, and she will will hoist that mattress on her shoulders as part savvy activism, part performance art. “The administration can end the piece, by expelling him,” she says, “or he can, by leaving campus.”

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Campus Police are real police officers.

Yes, some campuses have campus police who are sworn police officers. Some campuses have "campus/public safety/security" who are civilian security patrols. Some campuses have a "campus police/public safety/security" combination of sworn police officers and civilian security patrols.

I agree with AGDee.

Issues often arise because people (including students) often do not know the protocol. Campus police often do not have the same abilities as the city police and sheriff's departments and the level of deference to the city law enforcement can vary by the school and city. The campus civilian security patrols definitely do not have the same abilities and therefore have to defer to the city police and sheriff's offices. This process can be complicated for campus crimes including sexual assault and rape. It can be a difficult process of protecting the campus and students while protecting the institution (legally, etc), not ruffling feathers in the local police and sheriff's departments, and not losing jobs among campus police/campus security/public safety.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes, some campuses have campus police who are sworn police officers. Some campuses have "campus/public safety/security" who are civilian security patrols. Some campuses have a "campus police/public safety/security" combination of sworn police officers and civilian security patrols.

I agree with AGDee.

Issues often arise because people (including students) often do not know the protocol. Campus police often do not have the same abilities as the city police and sheriff's departments and the level of deference to the city law enforcement can vary by the school and city. The campus civilian security patrols definitely do not have the same abilities and therefore have to defer to the city police and sheriff's offices. This process can be complicated for campus crimes including sexual assault and rape. It can be a difficult process of protecting the campus and students while protecting the institution (legally, etc), not ruffling feathers in the local police and sheriff's departments, and not losing jobs among campus police/campus security/public safety.

I totally agree. Whoever decided on this system really screwed up. The Campus police, even when real police should be a division under the local city police. Actual crimes should NEVER be adjudicated by a college review board except as an adjunct to criminal proceedings.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Now, do I think we should just go around kicking people out of school every time there is an accusation? No. But I think, in a university setting, the burden of proof should be much more akin to that of a civil trial, i.e. 51%, and that they should be able to look at things like patterns of behavior, e.g. if someone is accused three times but none of them can be "proven," you need to look at why this individual keeps getting accused.

The problem with using a civil litigation burden of proof is mixing that with criminal-style penalties. Civil penalties are typically monetary awards paid to the other party, with maybe some injunctive relief or the like. And, of course, if this were to be treated as a civil action, then it's alleged victim vs. alleged assailant. But if the result of the proceeding could be the university taking disciplinary action, that is more akin to criminal penalties, and I think the higher burden of proof should apply, and it should university vs. alleged assailant.

[LillyPhi]

Johns Hopkins University needs to be added to the list of schools being investigated.