Indiana University 2014 Recruitment

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

Please see post #119.

Having 4 rounds wouldn't have changed the final number of women getting bids. It might have shaken up who got bids a bit, but I don't think the number of rounds would have changed the final outcome of many women going bidless.

I don't think she's suggesting there would be a drastic change. It's just that things are already tense and heart-breaking in this environment, so why make it worse? I think the PNMs feel a little more "ripped off" this year because they had even less time to meet with the chapters. It makes the selection process seem even more random and arbitrary.

[AOIILisa]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say here, and I don't want to derail this thread, but why would you not hire someone because they transferred from IU?

I kind of wondered how you would see that on a resume - mine just lists my degrees, schools, and years. I don't think I'd put a transfer on a resume, the final result is where your degree was earned.

I never had my sorority on my resume either - I didn't want people to have any preconcieved notions or stereotypes in their heads before I got a chance to meet them. Maybe others are different, though.

ETA - I can see why you may want to put that on - if you were president of your sorority or something like that. I had other work experience related to my major that I used instead.

[als463]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say here, and I don't want to derail this thread, but why would you not hire someone because they transferred from IU?

No, you're fine. I clearly didn't say it right. Excuse me for that. No, I'm saying that if a girl chose to transfer from IU to a lesser prestigious school just to go Greek and that was her reason, I wouldn't hire her. To me, I am more concerned about the prestige of their degree/ rigor of the school's program. If there were other reasons she transferred--that's okay. If IU has, say for example, the top #1 program in the nation for ______ and a woman transferred to Bumblescum U to a bottom program or a program less prestigious, I wouldn't hire her. Obviously, IU is a great school with so many great attributes. If her sole reason for leaving was the Greek situation and she went to a "lesser" school then nope! She needs to look elsewhere for employment. Now, if it was Purdue the person transferred to, which is another great school, then fine. If you choose lesser because recruitment knocked the wind out of you, I'm not so sure I want you working for me. I hope that one makes sense. Some people may say it's insensitive but, I really don't care.

[suzy88]

Some were wondering why they just didn't hold recruitment events on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. I think that some would perceive that as a bad day to hold recruitment events or a bid day. It is supposed to be a day of service and a day of reflection about the work he did.

[seraphimsprite]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Sure. But Indiana is only placing about 60% of the women who start the process, and IU is dropping a bunch of them after pref. University of Illinois places around 97% of the women who go all the way through and don't drop out. There was a really great webpage that listed how many women were dropped at U of I, but the school deleted it. Very few women at University of Illinois are dropped completely. Quite a few quit because they don't like their options, though, but that is on them.

Recruitment at IU is absolutely brutal and I'm not defending it, but the statistician in me is really cringing at this. I've seen a few people in this thread tossing around similar numbers but it's comparing apples to oranges with the statistics. IU's placement rate was 64% in 2013, which is undeniably low, but it is the percentage of registered women who received bids. That includes the women who were dropped for grades, those who were released before preference and the women who dropped out. If you calculate U of I placement in the same way, their placement rate is about 71%. At Miami of Ohio, 70% of the women registered received bids in 2013.

The comparable statistic to the 97% figure for U of I is 88% for IU (at least for 2013, I don't know how it will shake out this year.) Of the 1160 women who attended preference at IU, 1025 received bids. Now I'm of the opinion that if you go all the way through the process and maximize your options you should get a bid (barring exceptional circumstances) so I think 88% is still too low of a placement rate at that point in the process. But that's the figure we should be comparing to the argument that 95% or more of the women at other schools are placed. (For additional comparison for fellow statistics geeks - at Miami of Ohio the comparable placement rate is 92% and at Alabama a very impressive 99.5% of the women who attended preference received bids in 2012!)

[Sigmapsimom]

Originally Posted by blueiumom

I have a new question related to IU's recruitment this year, and I thought maybe a change of focus might be in order. I feel like panhel's decision to deal with the weather issues by eliminating one round of rush parties - thus going 21 to 12 to 3 - really added to the brutality of IU's already emotionally-charged recruitment process. Since the second weekend of rush was already taking place on a 3-day weekend due to the MLK holiday, I thought it was the perfect opportunity simply to use that Monday to adjust the schedule and still have the normal round of parties. Instead, the girls had their first invitational /12 party on Saturday, preference round/3 party on Sunday, and nothing on Monday. Bids were delivered (or not) on Tuesday. Does anyone know why panhel didn't or couldn't take advantage of that Monday? Just curious.

I agree with Sciencewoman that it would not have made a difference in the number of women who got bids. However, a 21-14-8-3 schedule provides for less dramatic cuts than 21-12-3 and it could have given PNMs assurance that they were at least considered, even if they were later cut between 14-8 or 8-3.

After the usual first round of cuts 21-14, girls get their first idea of where they stand, but still had up to 2 more rounds to meet and impress. They also had an entire week between 14 and 8 party to mourn, and then readjust their focus.

This year the girls went to 21, felt great an entire week not knowing where they stood and many were devastated the next Saturday. The cuts between 21-12 were far more dramatic than they would have been between 21-14. The 21-14 cut, which is normally done that first weekend, is the first time the girls really know where they stand and what chapters they should shoot for. So having it done that first weekend gave them a whole week to rethink things and get excited all over again about new possibilities. Until then, yes too many girls think they are getting into chapters they probably won't, but because there were still 2 more parties they have a chance to reevaluate things. They could go back to 14 and possibly 8 and try to dazzle chapters that they are now looking at in a new light, but that chance was taken from them and they're upset about that. Some chapters they might have had a second chance at, they did not because of the party cut.

It would have changed the outcome for some individual girls, but not the recruitment numbers. Bed quota is still the elephant in the room. However, Cutting an entire round of parties was a mistake regardless, because it gave the impression (and there is some truth to it) that decisions were made even more hastily and arbitrarily than usual.

[suzy88]

NPC has a set formula for determining placement rates. I am not sure you are using that formula. Again, NPC has a message board for people to make comments about their experiences with IU recruitment. IU is the only school in the nation that has been selected for that special honor. Not sure why they would provide that forum if they thought things were going great at IU.

[ZTAIUalum]

Originally Posted by seraphimsprite

Recruitment at IU is absolutely brutal and I'm not defending it, but the statistician in me is really cringing at this. I've seen a few people in this thread tossing around similar numbers but it's comparing apples to oranges with the statistics. IU's placement rate was 64% in 2013, which is undeniably low, but it is the percentage of registered women who received bids. That includes the women who were dropped for grades, those who were released before preference and the women who dropped out. If you calculate U of I placement in the same way, their placement rate is about 71%. At Miami of Ohio, 70% of the women registered received bids in 2013.

The comparable statistic to the 97% figure for U of I is 88% for IU (at least for 2013, I don't know how it will shake out this year.) Of the 1160 women who attended preference at IU, 1025 received bids. Now I'm of the opinion that if you go all the way through the process and maximize your options you should get a bid (barring exceptional circumstances) so I think 88% is still too low of a placement rate at that point in the process. But that's the figure we should be comparing to the argument that 95% or more of the women at other schools are placed. (For additional comparison for fellow statistics geeks - at Miami of Ohio the comparable placement rate is 92% and at Alabama a very impressive 99.5% of the women who attended preference received bids in 2012!)

Thank you so much for your statistics...

I know the process at Bama well. If the girls get a call back for Pref night and they agree to any of the houses they get back (i.e. they do not suicide) they will automatically be put into one of the houses. They are not guaranteed their first choice, but they are guaranteed one of the houses. I do believe this is how it should be, bc by the time you get to that point, you are so stressed and spent it is beyond disappointing to the girls. Also, Bama does put a lot of weight on grades. The girls that are often cut are the girls who do not have good grades. Their system encourages very high GPAs so if you come in from HS for instance, (their rush is at the beginning of the year) with a lower GPA, it is VERY hard to get callbacks. They are pressured to keep their house GPAs up, some houses more than others.

I think that it should still be the preference of the sorority to give the bids, but I do agree that maybe all houses should have the pledge classes of similar size, but then again, it is up to the headquarters of the sorority. ZTA's headquarters encouraged them to take a larger class, not only to have more members but to leverage the members to allow them to make more money and be more involved with their philanthropy.

I think everyone feels the same way, no one wants girls to be sad, disconnected or be rejected. I have two girls myself and my heart breaks for these girls (and it will for mine), but it is a selection process. Unfortunately, it will always be that the in state girls will inevitably be at an advantage too, bc they may know someone in XXX house etc. I was not in state and I remember all the in state girls knowing EVERYBODY!

Everyone just needs to be kind. Sorority girls are not intentionally mean (most that is), it is brutal on the other side too. We are not in "ivory towers" we are not insensitive. We cry too, we cry for our friends who did not get in, we cry for our girls that do not choose us that we really wanted...we are human and not ice queens. I think we must remember one thing...

We as women should be supporting each other not breaking each other down...

So thank you for these statistics. Thank you thank you!

[blueiumom]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I don't think she's suggesting there would be a drastic change. It's just that things are already tense and heart-breaking in this environment, so why make it worse? I think the PNMs feel a little more "ripped off" this year because they had even less time to meet with the chapters. It makes the selection process seem even more random and arbitrary.

Exactly. With fewer rounds, there is less opportunity for both sides to really fine tune their lists and hone in on the girls they want. When you go from 12 houses to 3, it seems like the matches are going to be made further down everyone's lists. Many of the 1000+ girls who now happily have bids are at houses that probably weren't anywhere near the top 3 on their lists for preference round - and that meant even they were likely bawling on Sunday morning. (The majority of the girls were.) I know that would still happen with 4 rounds; it'd just be to a lesser degree. In any event, that's really beside the point of my question . . . I'd love to hear from IU's panhel as to why they didn't just reschedule the rounds into Monday. There probably is a perfectly good reason; I'd just like to know! Until then, it is one more place for me to direct my angst!

[stbemtpynest]

Originally Posted by suzy88

NPC has a set formula for determining placement rates. I am not sure you are using that formula. Again, NPC has a message board for people to make comments about their experiences with IU recruitment. IU is the only school in the nation that has been selected for that special honor. Not sure why they would provide that forum if they thought things were going great at IU.

Do you have a link to this message board?

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Not everybody has $15,000 - $20,000 extra dollars to spend every year to go to an out-of-state school or a private school. IU is a deal for in-state students. They shouldn't be forced to choose between tuition dollars and Greek Life.

Not when this problem is an artificially created problem that can be easily corrected.

Thank you KDCat. This is a point that often gets overlooked. Some girls just don't have the money to go to an out of state school. IU and Purdue are both excellent schools they just focus on two very different career paths.

For those who do, in addition to tuition, out of state girls often incur travel costs, moving costs and shipping costs depending on how far away she is from home. I know a lovely young lady from New Jersey who attends IU and if she did not have other family from Indiana she would not be with family on Thanksgiving or Easter. It's too much money to buy plane tickets for more than two holidays. She can get two suitcases full of clothes here but she had to ship the rest out.

The problem could be corrected fairly easily. Adopt campus total. Set it at the average chapter size, like every other school in the country (and some in Canada ). This change would not be devastatingly drastic to any chapter and it would level the playing field. Those chapters who have to COR might realize how many great women there are out there.

Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912

They're cutting girls they invited to pref. They DO want these girls, they just don't want to lose the reputation of exclusivity. It's not a Tufts situation.

Yes, RFM was supposed to cut down on this but if a girl is on each chapter's third list she might not get placed. However, IU could do a better job of adding QAs, only a few chapters take them currently.

Originally Posted by BlueCarnation

Agreed. It's interesting...the administration here is trying to force some changes to recruitment that we don't think we're going to want. Maybe we can convince them to go down and work with IU instead?

I think it would be amazing if the national organizations got involved in an educational way. Show the IU collegians how recruitment is done at other schools of similar size: Pac 12, SEC, Big 12. Show the chapters how much more money they could have coming in with just 20 more members. How much more they could do with their philanthropies with just 20 more members. Maybe education is the key to change.

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

This is what it boils down to for me.

No chapter should be required to take girls they don't want. I don't think anyone here is advocating that.

But it is flat out wrong and rude to allow women to complete the entire process and even have a FULL schedule for pref and end up with NOTHING. It's WRONG. It's rude. It's completely contrary to the most basic of human kindness such as the Golden Rule which I'm sure is stated in some form or another in the values we all espouse to hold.

If chapters don't want those women, then drop them beforehand. I have no problem with that. If a woman is released completely before preference, it is sad and unfortunate, but it is part of the selection process. But there is NO WAY women should play by the rules and do everything asked of them and then get nothing after attending pref and listing all the groups on their cards.

The chapters do want these women, it's just that they wanted 42 more. I know it's hard to wrap around, but sometimes girls put themselves in this position when ranking. They like AAA better than BBB because it is "top tier" so they ranked it higher. They were on AAA's third bid list, but might have been on BBB's first list for whatever reason. Girls often rank with the tent talk in their ears rather than the logic in their minds. Not always, but it happens.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I don't think she's suggesting there would be a drastic change. It's just that things are already tense and heart-breaking in this environment, so why make it worse? I think the PNMs feel a little more "ripped off" this year because they had even less time to meet with the chapters. It makes the selection process seem even more random and arbitrary.

ASTalumna06, I do think some of this is true. I did talk with a wonderful young lady who mentioned that she wished she had an extra round to meet more sorority women. Maybe she would have met someone she click better with and that person might have pulled for her. I am sure it has crossed their minds some.

[suzy88]

Originally Posted by stbemtpynest

Do you have a link to this message board?

http://sororityparents.com/2011/01/s...y_bloomington/

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by suzy88

Some were wondering why they just didn't hold recruitment events on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. I think that some would perceive that as a bad day to hold recruitment events or a bid day. It is supposed to be a day of service and a day of reflection about the work he did.

Yes, holding a recruitment event, given the history of most NPC orgs. on MLK day would be fairly ignorant and insulting.

A better question, as 33girl has asked up thread, is why they didn't move bid day back. But in any case, there would NOT have been more women with bids. Just, possibly, a different distribution. That said, I think that in a deferred recruitment, the parties themselves aren't quite as important. And hell, if you ended up bidless, wouldn't you rather think they didn't have time to get to know you then that they did have time, and didn't like you enough?

As for each group's right to select it's own members, nobody is asking them to take women they don't want. They are asking them to set a fair quota. Let's say quota was set at 75, and one of the SRCs* decided they only wanted to take 50. They could, if they wanted, only issue 50 pref invites (in fact, any chapter at any school could do this). Do you think they would do that? Probably not, because they risk not being listed as #1 by all 50 women and ending up with fewer than 50. If you want 50, even if you have a very high return rate, you ALWAYS put more than 50 on your list, which just underscores the fact that there are more than *quota* # of women who meet your membership standards.

Besides, it's not like we let chapters go the other way. At other schools, one chapter can't just decide that they want to take more than quota. We regulate the system plenty at all those other schools, why not at IU? The idea that IU sororities should have the right to choose their members however they want just doesn't hold water with me. If that's the case, why have a formal recruitment at all?


*Strong Recruiting Chapter, i.e. a chapter that typically has high return rates, lots of PNM's listing them first after pref, etc.

[seraphimsprite]

Originally Posted by suzy88

NPC has a set formula for determining placement rates. I am not sure you are using that formula. Again, NPC has a message board for people to make comments about their experiences with IU recruitment. IU is the only school in the nation that has been selected for that special honor. Not sure why they would provide that forum if they thought things were going great at IU.

There are absolutely different ways to calculate all-sorority placement rates, mostly varying in terms of the starting point (# of women registered, # of women who attend the first party, # of women who sign pref cards, etc). Different campus panhellenics calculate this statistic in different ways - most of the reports I've seen try to advertise a high placement rate for the campus and I do think it's interesting that Indiana presents the lowest rate possible by using # of women registered as the denominator. You might be confusing what I'm talking about with quota, which NPC does have a formula for.

Also I was pretty clear that I'm not a fan of the IU system, just advocating proper use of statistics.

[blueiumom]

Originally Posted by Sigmapsimom

I agree with Sciencewoman that it would not have made a difference in the number of women who got bids. However, a 21-14-8-3 schedule provides for less dramatic cuts than 21-12-3 and it could have given PNMs assurance that they were at least considered, even if they were later cut between 14-8 or 8-3.

After the usual first round of cuts 21-14, girls get their first idea of where they stand, but still had up to 2 more rounds to meet and impress. They also had an entire week between 14 and 8 party to mourn, and then readjust their focus.

This year the girls went to 21, felt great an entire week not knowing where they stood and many were devastated the next Saturday. The cuts between 21-12 were far more dramatic than they would have been between 21-14. The 21-14 cut, which is normally done that first weekend, is the first time the girls really know where they stand and what chapters they should shoot for. So having it done that first weekend gave them a whole week to rethink things and get excited all over again about new possibilities. Until then, yes too many girls think they are getting into chapters they probably won't, but because there were still 2 more parties they have a chance to reevaluate things. They could go back to 14 and possibly 8 and try to dazzle chapters that they are now looking at in a new light, but that chance was taken from them and they're upset about that. Some chapters they might have had a second chance at, they did not because of the party cut.

It would have changed the outcome for some individual girls, but not the recruitment numbers. Bed quota is still the elephant in the room. However, Cutting an entire round of parties was a mistake regardless, because it gave the impression (and there is some truth to it) that decisions were made even more hastily and arbitrarily than usual.

Exactly. It made an already stressful, often painful process even more brutal than it had been in the past. As if panhel was insensitive to it all . . .