Doctor/Medical Assisted Suicide

[AXOmom]

I'm not in a field where I would know how scientifically valid a study might be, but this one looked like it covered the effects of Oregon's law (or how it was actually working) pretty comprehensively and objectively. It's from 2004, so quite some time after the law went into effect.

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/reports/0...ity_report.htm

[aggieAXO]

I don't understand why we do not allow euthanasia for people. It is my life-if I want to die I should be able to chose this and die with diginity. If I have a terminal disease or I am in chronic pain or even mental anguish (severe depression) and I want to end my life I should be able to do it painlessly and safely. That being said, I will definitely have a bottle of beuth stashed away (or maybe some phenobarb and valium or propofol) if the time ever comes and I am in a situation where I can no longer lead a productive, happy life. For me it is about QUALITY, not quantity. I have dealt with hospice (my father passed away 2 years ago) and frankly there is no way I am going to go through that. I will not go to a nursing home. We all are going to die someday-you cannot escape it-why not make it peaceful and painless??

I suppose vets see it differently than most people b/c we perform euthanasia everyday-and I thank the lord we can.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I'm for it, not just in terminal illness cases but in severe disability which precludes any quality of life such as quadraplegia at the C1 or C2 level, severe stroke impairment that will not improve, etc. It isn't really possible for all patients to do it by themselves because some are physically unable to obtain the means.

I'm also pro-hospice, but have seen people suffer up until the very last minute, even while hospice was trying to keep them comfortable. If pain is so great that no pain meds can touch it and a patient is terminal and conscious, it's a pretty awful situation.

I also think "do no harm" can be interpreted a lot of ways. I also struggle with the religious arguments against it. The argument I usually hear is that it is "playing God" and such things should be left up to God. But I never hear that argument go in the other direction. Most (not all) are ok with taking all kinds of medical extreme measures to prolong a life. Isn't this playing God too? Where do we draw that line? People used to die from all kinds of infections that we now treat easily with penicillin. People died of heart problems that are much more easily treated now. If our time and manner of death is all predetermined, then why treat anything? For these reasons, I don't buy into that argument. I just can't understand where the line is. It's one of my first questions for Him when I die. (I have a whole list of these types of questions)

These are all reasons why it is important for people to have patient advocates and Living Wills, if they feel strongly about not being in certain circumstances.

Yup, I have heard the playing God argument before as well, but we play God everyday by prolonging life that likely would have ended if we had no treatment available. I admit, I am not really religious so God does not play a part in it for me. If you don't believe in euthanasia ("good death") that is fine but do not prevent me from choosing this for myself. I tried to put a clause in my will to euthanize me if I got into an accident and I was not going to be able to be a full functioning adult again but, unfortunately, my lawyer said it would do me no good and that legally I have to be provided with some medical treatment-so I chose pain meds and IV fluids only-I think it is sad that I would have to starve to death (which would take 1-2 weeks) to die.

The gentleman next to my father was dying of some type of neuromusclar disease. It was horrible seeing him waste away. He finally came down with penumonia-I would visit my father for hours and hear this poor man struggle to breath-and yes he was conscious during the process-he could not sleep because he was coughing so much and drowning in his own fluids-it broke my heart. This lasted about 3 days-how friggin awful.

[DrPhil]

Man with locked-in syndrome, Tony Nicklinson, dies at home week after losing euthanasia court case


This could perhaps explain why assisted suicide is sometimes frowned upon for conditions such as locked-in syndrome.

[Mevara]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Man with locked-in syndrome, Tony Nicklinson, dies at home week after losing euthanasia court case


This could perhaps explain why assisted suicide is sometimes frowned upon for conditions such as locked-in syndrome.

I think those two are very different. Tony Nicklinson was asking for himself where Richard Marsh was unable to. Taking Richard Marsh off of life support machines is not assisted suicide.

[DrPhil]

That depends. Taking someone off life support can be called different things depending on the circumstances. Luckily, no one "made" Richard Marsh die and he was able to fight for his life (even if unbeknownst to anyone but himself). Marsh says he was fully conscious during much of the ordeal but no one knew that.

I was moreso saying that some people would not support assisted suicide (regardless of how the person requests it or whether a family member is able to request it) because of the rare instances like Marsh's where people fully recover from a condition.

[aggieAXO]

To me this is not about "making anyone die". From the article I gathered that he wanted to live no matter what-that is his choice. He recovered quickly compared to the guy in the other article who had been a prisoner in his own body for 5 years-maybe Mr. Marsh would have a different opinion if he had been unable to lead a normal life for years, maybe not? The point is we should have a choice-it is my life. I do have a clause in my will to give me 6 months if on a ventilator (my firend talked me into this I was going to give myslef a maximum of 3 months). But overall, if I cannot lead a normal life-meaning get up and got to work, live independently, then I don't want to be here anymore.

[aggieAXO]

Well I tried to correct my spelling but it won't let me edit-so please ignore the crappy spelling

[DrPhil]

I use "made" in reference to Richard Marsh because he was unable to express his desire to live. They could have very well turned off the ventilator which some interpret as a family-doctor-consent assisted suicide (some would consider it murder) for which Marsh was unable to consent.

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

From the article I gathered that he wanted to live no matter what-that is his choice. He recovered quickly compared to the guy in the other article who had been a prisoner in his own body for 5 years-maybe Mr. Marsh would have a different opinion if he had been unable to lead a normal life for years, maybe not? The point is we should have a choice-it is my life. I do have a clause in my will to give me 6 months if on a ventilator (my firend talked me into this I was going to give myslef a maximum of 3 months). But overall, if I cannot lead a normal life-meaning get up and got to work, live independently, then I don't want to be here anymore.

Correct and Marsh believes that people have a right to live or die if they so choose. He wanted to live but he was unable to express his choice either way.

My point is that:

1.) Some people who are opposed to assisted suicide are opposed because they believe in the potential for someone to recover as Marsh did.

2.) There are instances where taking someone off life support is "making them die." People can rationalize and word it however they choose but it is what it is in these instances. If they had turned off Marsh's ventilator before his body was able to recover on its own, that could have "made" him die.

[CutiePie2000]

I don't like the idea of people suffering needlessly, but I have to say, I don't think I'd have the cojones to "finish someone off" if they asked me to and I knew that they were suffering.

I think my trepidation comes from knowing that my Judeo-Christian guilt would haunt me...hard to say when dealing in hypotheticals.....(and I'm not super religious).

[carnation]

My uncle died of AIDS several years ago. He was a physician, as was his partner, and we're pretty sure that a group of their friends had a pact to help anyone in the group die should they begin to suffer hugely. He had almost no symptoms for years and suddenly, everything descended on him. His partner called my mom and said, "Your brother died a few hours ago and he was cremated a couple of hours later so you guys don't really have to come if you're busy."

I forgot what hints we got over the years but the death pact theory really began to make sense after awhile. Part of me gets why they did it and part of me is horrified by the idea of putting a lucid human to death. I really, really have mixed feelings.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I use "made" in reference to Richard Marsh because he was unable to express his desire to live. They could have very well turned off the ventilator which some interpret as a family-doctor-consent assisted suicide (some would consider it murder) for which Marsh was unable to consent.



Correct and Marsh believes that people have a right to live or die if they so choose. He wanted to live but he was unable to express his choice either way.

My point is that:

1.) Some people who are opposed to assisted suicide are opposed because they believe in the potential for someone to recover as Marsh did.

2.) There are instances where taking someone off life support is "making them die." People can rationalize and word it however they choose but it is what it is in these instances. If they had turned off Marsh's ventilator before his body was able to recover on its own, that could have "made" him die.

That is why it is so important to make your wishes known before something happens. I have very specific instructions in my will b/c this is so improtant to me-the way I die. Everyone close to me knows my wishes. I don't want to sit on a ventilator for months to years. I don't want to be a vegetable or even semi lucid, If I cannot be a full functioning human I want to go. If I was in an accident and had to be on a ventilator I have instructions to take me off in 6 months (I initially had 3 months but my friend talked me into 6-if they take me off before then I am ok with that). I have 2 very close friends that are vets and they are listed in my will as medical POA. They know my wishes and will help my family if the need shoudld arise. Having medical knowledge helps a great deal. And I am not talking about "someone"-I am talking about me and what I want.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by carnation

My uncle died of AIDS several years ago. He was a physician, as was his partner, and we're pretty sure that a group of their friends had a pact to help anyone in the group die should they begin to suffer hugely. He had almost no symptoms for years and suddenly, everything descended on him. His partner called my mom and said, "Your brother died a few hours ago and he was cremated a couple of hours later so you guys don't really have to come if you're busy."

I forgot what hints we got over the years but the death pact theory really began to make sense after awhile. Part of me gets why they did it and part of me is horrified by the idea of putting a lucid human to death. I really, really have mixed feelings.

On that note-my close friends (all vets) also have a pact. We all know each others wishes.
I don't understand why "death" is treated as such a dirty word/thing. It is a part of life. It is going to happen to all of us, why not make it quick, painless and peaceful?

[Splash]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

I don't understand why we do not allow euthanasia for people. It is my life-if I want to die I should be able to chose this and die with diginity. If I have a terminal disease or I am in chronic pain or even mental anguish (severe depression) and I want to end my life I should be able to do it painlessly and safely. That being said, I will definitely have a bottle of beuth stashed away (or maybe some phenobarb and valium or propofol) if the time ever comes and I am in a situation where I can no longer lead a productive, happy life. For me it is about QUALITY, not quantity. I have dealt with hospice (my father passed away 2 years ago) and frankly there is no way I am going to go through that. I will not go to a nursing home. We all are going to die someday-you cannot escape it-why not make it peaceful and painless??

I suppose vets see it differently than most people b/c we perform euthanasia everyday-and I thank the lord we can.

Then commit suicide. Do not make someone else do it for you

[DrPhil]

Aggie, by "vets" are you talking about veterinarians(sp)? Do you think the life and death of an animal is comparable to that of a human? I do not believe the average "vet" who is accustomed to performing euthenasia for dogs and cats would be so mentally and physically willing and able to assist in the passing of a human.

Splash, that makes sense for people who are mentally and physically capable of committing suicide with no assistance. However, assisted suicide is often applied to people who are not able to do that.