E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ASTalumna06 summed it up. You really can't understand it unless/until you live here. And for a lot of PSU students and alumni, it has ZERO to do with football or the coach (past, present or future).

I think a big part of it is that so many businesses in the state (like the steel mills) have been lost, and Penn State is still booming and then some.

I completely agree that the issues Penn State is currently dealing with have little to do with football. My point to Als463 was that the quote she referenced from me and responded to was a conversation about the specific consequences the football team was dealing with and had nothing to do with the general Penn State population.

The rest of this isn't directed specifically at you but at several of the previous posts from those who went to Penn State or live in the state. I have to say I'm a little bothered/concerned about the "Penn State is an experience separate from all others and no one else can understand how special it is to all of us" attitude. I understand it is special to all of you and you are just trying to get that across and you don't mean it to sound this way, but it comes across as a little insulting and provincial.

As Dr. Phil stated, Penn State did not invent the wheel when it comes to the loyalty and love its alums and the state feel for the school. While it's true that unless you live there you don't understand the feelings people have for Penn State, it is equally true that no one from Pennsylvania or Penn State understands the feelings someone from say, West Virginia has for WVU or someone from Nebraska has for well, Nebraska.

Saying "You'd have to live here to understand" is a little like someone coming on and saying, "Hey, I'm sure all GLO's are good, but the XYZ's are a little different. We have an especially strong sisterhood. Our rituals are so touching and so many girls would rather be nothing if they can't be an XYZ. XYZ just means so much to us. It's our everything. We do things differently. You just have to be an XYZ to really understand." Come to think of it- that has happened on this forum before or some version of it and most of you quite understandably view it as an insult.

On a deeper level - I really wish you were all right and that kind of vehement loyalty and school love to Penn State or any other organization was unique. Unfortunately, I doubt it's true. That actually scares me more because while I know that all of you are completely appalled by what happened there and in no way condone it, that prevalent attitude or an extreme version of it, in my view, is what allowed it to continue and caused it to be covered up. It's what typically leads people to the kind of horrific decisions that the Penn State administrators and Joe Paterno made.

It's one step from "We're a little bit special and unique" to "Because we are special and unique, we can do things differently and the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to us." That sums up the "Penn State culture" that the NCAA and Freeh report denounced because it is so dangerous.

Anytime you let who you are as an individual get that tied into an institution, organization, school, business - even a family you run the risk of putting it before all else and letting your personal sense of right and wrong go out the window. You start justifying wrong behavior for the sake of that group and that's what these men did. It's what several bishops in the Catholic church did. It's what thousands of families across the country do every day.

Again, I'm not singling out Penn State because I don't think your attitudes and feelings are unique. I think many of us in many states have that same depth of feeling for our schools, churches, organizations, businesses, families, whatever, and we all need to take a step back and check ourselves because there but for the grace of God....

PS - 33Girl - I wrote this out before I say knight_shadow's response and your response to that, so I appreciate that you already understood my point and I'm preaching to the choir.

I do want to add that while I get your point about Penn State being important because the state is economically depressed, so it makes a successful program like Penn State even more important, look just to your south to see a state constantly in economic depression with NOTHING to hang onto but a college football program. In even that Penn State is not unique and I assure you WVa can one up you there.

And I'm really sorry this is so long, but I've kind of been holding this for awhile.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

You misunderstood what I'm trying to say.

I got "Penn State was able to survive when other things in the state weren't able to. It's the shining light of our state."

If that's what you intended, then that's fine. But (to me) that's not relevant to this situation. It's just people trying to grasp at ANYTHING to make sense of what happened. Instead of thinking about "What could Penn State have done?" I think the focus should be "Why did Sandusky do this shit?" I don't think you (33girl) are continuing to bring it back to the school, since it's the 24-hour news cycle who is trying to connect all the (irrelevant) dots.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I got "Penn State was able to survive when other things in the state weren't able to. It's the shining light of our state."

If that's what you intended, then that's fine. But (to me) that's not relevant to this situation.

It doesn't have to be relevant to the Sandusky criminal acts - it could wlel be relevant to why/how people are reacting to them, though.

With that said - the notion of a PSU diaspora, different from all the rest, seems somewhat faulty to me, as the experience of Pennsylvanians isn't all that different from other similar states on the surface, including factors like unemployment and job loss.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The rest of this isn't directed specifically at you but at several of the previous posts from those who went to Penn State or live in the state. I have to say I'm a little bothered/concerned about the "Penn State is an experience separate from all others and no one else can understand how special it is to all of us" attitude. I understand it is special to all of you and you are just trying to get that across and you don't mean it to sound this way, but it comes across as a little insulting and provincial.

As Dr. Phil stated, Penn State did not invent the wheel when it comes to the loyalty and love its alums and the state feel for the school. While it's true that unless you live there you don't understand the feelings people have for Penn State, it is equally true that no one from Pennsylvania or Penn State understands the feelings someone from say, West Virginia has for WVU or someone from Nebraska has for well, Nebraska.

Saying "You'd have to live here to understand" is a little like someone coming on and saying, "Hey, I'm sure all GLO's are good, but the XYZ's are a little different. We have an especially strong sisterhood. Our rituals are so touching and so many girls would rather be nothing if they can't be an XYZ. XYZ just means so much to us. It's our everything. We do things differently. You just have to be an XYZ to really understand." Come to think of it- that has happened on this forum before or some version of it and most of you quite understandably view it as an insult.

On a deeper level - I really wish you were all right and that kind of vehement loyalty and school love to Penn State or any other organization was unique. Unfortunately, I doubt it's true. That actually scares me more because while I know that all of you are completely appalled by what happened there and in no way condone it, that prevalent attitude or an extreme version of it, in my view, is what allowed it to continue and caused it to be covered up. It's what typically leads people to the kind of horrific decisions that the Penn State administrators and Joe Paterno made.

It's one step from "We're a little bit special and unique" to "Because we are special and unique, we can do things differently and the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to us." That sums up the "Penn State culture" that the NCAA and Freeh report denounced because it is so dangerous.

Anytime you let who you are as an individual get that tied into an institution, organization, school, business - even a family you run the risk of putting it before all else and letting your personal sense of right and wrong go out the window. You start justifying wrong behavior for the sake of that group and that's what these men did. It's what several bishops in the Catholic church did. It's what thousands of families across the country do every day.

I think you may have missed my point.

Trust me, I'm not drinking the Penn State Kool-aid. I wear a Penn State shirt from time to time. I attended a couple games while I was in school. And I went to class and graduated. The end.

Your sorority analogy is a little off. I am in no way saying "Penn State is a special and unique snowflake.". I'm not implying that Penn Staters have more pride, dedication.. or whatever.. than students and alumni of other schools. And I'm definitely not saying they can/should get away with anything and everything.

My point is that basically the entire state IS Penn State. I pretty much grew up in Boston, and there are a ton of great schools there, and many students and alumni take great pride in their school (as they should), and I'm sure many of them are more dedicated to their alma mater than Penn State alumni. But what I'm saying is that a huge chunk of Pennsylvanians live and breathe Penn State, even if they never attend the school. It is THE school in PA. That's not to say that other schools in PA aren't great or worth going to.. And I'm not saying Penn State is the best.. it's just that Penn State is a way of life for A LOT of people.

I don't know a better way to describe it than that.

But maybe that's just my perspective. All I know is, I've never experienced anything like it before. And I've thought this way for a long time - long before Sandusky's name hit the papers.

[Greek_or_Geek?]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I think you may have missed my point.

Trust me, I'm not drinking the Penn State Kool-aid. I wear a Penn State shirt from time to time. I attended a couple games while I was in school. And I went to class and graduated. The end.

Your sorority analogy is a little off. I am in no way saying "Penn State is a special and unique snowflake.". I'm not implying that Penn Staters have more pride, dedication.. or whatever.. than students and alumni of other schools. And I'm definitely not saying they can/should get away with anything and everything.

My point is that basically the entire state IS Penn State. I pretty much grew up in Boston, and there are a ton of great schools there, and many students and alumni take great pride in their school (as they should), and I'm sure many of them are more dedicated to their alma mater than Penn State alumni. But what I'm saying is that a huge chunk of Pennsylvanians live and breathe Penn State, even if they never attend the school. It is THE school in PA. That's not to say that other schools in PA aren't great or worth going to.. And I'm not saying Penn State is the best.. it's just that Penn State is a way of life for A LOT of people.

I don't know a better way to describe it than that.

But maybe that's just my perspective. All I know is, I've never experienced anything like it before. And I've thought this way for a long time - long before Sandusky's name hit the papers.

I think you need to get out more then. Start with maybe visits to Alabama and Mississippi. Then you might be able to comprehend how spectacularly commonplace Penn State's relationship to its public is.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Greek_or_Geek?

I think you need to get out more then. Start with maybe visits to Alabama and Mississippi. Then you might be able to comprehend how spectacularly commonplace Penn State's relationship to its public is.

You don't even have to leave PSU's half of the Big 10 to get nearly-identical situations ...

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I think you may have missed my point.

Trust me, I'm not drinking the Penn State Kool-aid. I wear a Penn State shirt from time to time. I attended a couple games while I was in school. And I went to class and graduated. The end.

Your sorority analogy is a little off. I am in no way saying "Penn State is a special and unique snowflake.". I'm not implying that Penn Staters have more pride, dedication.. or whatever.. than students and alumni of other schools. And I'm definitely not saying they can/should get away with anything and everything.

My point is that basically the entire state IS Penn State. I pretty much grew up in Boston, and there are a ton of great schools there, and many students and alumni take great pride in their school (as they should), and I'm sure many of them are more dedicated to their alma mater than Penn State alumni. But what I'm saying is that a huge chunk of Pennsylvanians live and breathe Penn State, even if they never attend the school. It is THE school in PA. That's not to say that other schools in PA aren't great or worth going to.. And I'm not saying Penn State is the best.. it's just that Penn State is a way of life for A LOT of people.

I don't know a better way to describe it than that.

But maybe that's just my perspective. All I know is, I've never experienced anything like it before. And I've thought this way for a long time - long before Sandusky's name hit the papers.

The sorority analogy wasn't actually directed at anything you said - it was directed more at what several PSU posters in this thread and another on this same subject have said over the past few months. I don't think this means any of them or you condone the actions taken by Penn State's administration - I'm just saying that on some level - the "it's just different here" or "our relationship to our school is special" can be dangerous and can lead to those actions.

I think you have been generally more even-handed in your perspective on your experience at Penn State than some, but the bolded is one example of my point.

It makes sense that there would be less of a "following" for one particluar school when there are loads of outstanding schools whose focus is more academic and less athletic, and since this is what you knew before going to Penn State, I can see how you would believe that Pennsylvania's relationship to it is unique in some way.


As Greek or Geek suggested, you need to spend some time in a state where the opposite of your Boston experience is true - a state where the university and specifically the university's football program is pretty much all there is for many reasons (once again I offer up Nebraska). Or they're raised in a culture where college football qualifies as a religous belief system (Texas). What seems unique and unusual to you would seem expected and standard for them.

[thewasher418]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I think you may have missed my point.
My point is that basically the entire state IS Penn State. I pretty much grew up in Boston, and there are a ton of great schools there, and many students and alumni take great pride in their school (as they should), and I'm sure many of them are more dedicated to their alma mater than Penn State alumni. But what I'm saying is that a huge chunk of Pennsylvanians live and breathe Penn State, even if they never attend the school. It is THE school in PA. That's not to say that other schools in PA aren't great or worth going to.. And I'm not saying Penn State is the best.. it's just that Penn State is a way of life for A LOT of people.

I don't know a better way to describe it than that.

But maybe that's just my perspective. All I know is, I've never experienced anything like it before. And I've thought this way for a long time - long before Sandusky's name hit the papers.

May I introduce you to my home state (Louisiana), where people who have NEVER SET FOOT in Baton Rouge, never went to ANY college or went to another one (like I did), live and breathe LSU football. This is not unique.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by thewasher418

May I introduce you to my home state (Louisiana), where people who have NEVER SET FOOT in Baton Rouge, never went to ANY college or went to another one (like I did), live and breathe LSU football. This is not unique.

I didn't know you were from LA! Amen! LSU is Mecca no matter where you went to school or even I'd you didn't (which applies to most people) and is one of the ties that binds the citizens of the state.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

I understand it is special to all of you and you are just trying to get that across and you don't mean it to sound this way, but it comes across as a little insulting and provincial.

It's Pennsylvania. We are provincial. We admit it. That's life. We go to our $100k a year jobs with Steeler jackets worn on top of our suits (because that's your good winter coat.)

Will everyone stop jumping down ASTAlumna06's throat if she qualifies her statements with "In the Northeast"?

So, basically what everyone else is trying to say is that the same scandal could happen at LSU, or Bama, or Illinois?

As far as the WVU example, sorry, it's just not the same. The state's about a tenth of the size.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

So, basically what everyone else is trying to say is that the same scandal could happen at LSU, or Bama, or Illinois?

Unfortunately, yes - the same set of conditions exist, or could exist, at many big schools where power lies in people whose interests align with things only tangential to the University's values (ie "winning football games").

This is why DrPhil has tried to make this about more than Penn State.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It's Pennsylvania. We are provincial. We admit it. That's life. We go to our $100k a year jobs with Steeler jackets worn on top of our suits (because that's your good winter coat.)

Will everyone stop jumping down ASTAlumna06's throat if she qualifies her statements with "In the Northeast"?

So, basically what everyone else is trying to say is that the same scandal could happen at LSU, or Bama, or Illinois?

As far as the WVU example, sorry, it's just not the same. The state's about a tenth of the size.

First off I didn't say Pennsylvania was provincial - I said what several of you said sounded provincial. I should have clarified what I meant by that - I mean in the sense that the word means narrow or lacking broadmindedness. In this same sense people in my state are often make statements that sound provincial - I personally don't consider that an acceptable thing. I hope it's something we strive to change.

Instead I would hope that if many pointed out to us a particular situation we believe is unique to us really isn't and we should broaden our horizons a bit before drawing that conclusion - we would consider that our previous assumptions might be incorrect and adjust them.


I don't see any place where I "jumped down" ASTalumna06's throat, and if she feels that I did, I want to apologize to her. That wasn't my intent. I don't see anything I wrote that could be read that way. I disagreed with her, but I tried to make every effort to be polite in doing so.


She said she grew up in the northeast and she stated that the type of relationship between Pennsylvania and Penn State doesn't exist there. That I understood, and I stated that I could see where that would be the case. All I suggested was this probably explained why the situation in Pennsylvania seemed unique to her, but if she had spent time in another part of the country she probably wouldn't find that to be the case, and she should probably do that before making the assumption that it is a unique situation.


I don't see what West Virginia's size or the size of any other state mentioned as a comparison has to do with this. In the context of explaining why Pennsylvania is uniquely focused on Penn State, you asserted that it was partially due to Pennsylvania's poor economy and a need to focus on the one good thing they had going for them. I simply pointed out that the same circumstances exists in West Virginia and has for a much longer period of time and to a much greater degree, so that situation also isn't unique to Pennsylvania. I'm not seeing how size is relevant to that. Could you explain?

Again, my intention isn't to offend you or any of the other posters from Pennsylvania. For me, I simply want you to allow for the possibility that a school whose characteristics and relationship to its state seem so unique to you - aren't as unique and unusual as you believe them to be.

So now I've clearly used up my quota on the word unique for the year, I'll conclude my little treatise.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by 33girl

As far as the WVU example, sorry, it's just not the same. The state's about a tenth of the size.

As a proud Pitt alumna, I hate WVU just slightly more than I hate Penn State.

[DrPhil]

This has now become a braggadocious insistence that Penn State is so whatever that this could only happen there. Okay, Penn State enthusiasts and sympathizers, this is all about Penn State. You all can have this shit. Good fucking grief.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This has now become a braggadocious insistence that Penn State is so whatever that this could only happen there. Okay, Penn State enthusiasts and sympathizers, this is all about Penn State. You all can have this shit. Good fucking grief.

They just keep missing the point. And, I don't think it would have happened the same way at LSU as it did at PSU. Les Miles can't shit without someone second guessing him. Don't get me wrong, LSU may be hiding other things, but no one would stand behind Miles for this. It takes an environment like the one fostered with Paterno as the law of the land with no checks or balances for so many years. Miles had no hand in picking the AD, President or Chancellor at LSU. Their jobs aren't riding on Miles' approval. I have no doubt that Les Miles would be driven out of town by a mob, and that I can guarantee given the mobs that form when he dares to lose a football game.