E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

[als463]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by als463

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

I will agree with this.

I didn't realize the "Power of Penn State" until I started looking into the school. I grew up in New England, which has many great schools. And yes, students there obviously have school pride, but there is something different about PSU.

I don't know if other colleges and universities do this, but I was living in NH, and my mom saw an ad in the newspaper for a Penn State presentation (for prospective students) being held at a local hotel. There were many high school students in attendance, and those that gave the presentation were so excited about Penn State. This is also where I learned about PSU's 20 campuses and all they had to offer.

A few months after I was accepted, I received an invitation in the mail to a BBQ - a family in NH holds a big party every summer, and they invite all of the incoming freshmen, and their families, in the tri-state area. My mom and I were a bit shocked by how into Penn State everyone was, and we KNEW that about half of these students' parents were Penn State alumni. They held a Penn State trivia game, and my mom and I looked clueless, as everyone else was yelling out answers to questions that we didn't even understand.

And I can't even tell you how many times I heard "WE ARE.. PENN STATE!" yelled that day.

When I finally got to PA, I was shocked at how into Penn State EVERYONE was. Young kids, teenagers, adults, parents, grandparents, etc. I worked in a small law firm after I graduated, and 3 different employees had season tickets to the games.. one of which didn't even like football - she just enjoyed the energy of the stadium, and the students. I had visited a few of my friends' parents houses around Christmas time each year, and ALL of them had Penn State-themed trees. With so many campuses all around the state, everyone lived and breathed that school.

Pennsylvania basically = Penn State

I live in NJ now, and I see more Penn State stickers on cars than I do any other school. The bars around here have more Penn State memorabilia in them than other universities, and I frequently run into alumni groups out in public that get together to watch the games.

It's not all about football. Even the love that people had for Joe Paterno wasn't all about football. There's a reason his name was attached to scholarships and awards, and it wasn't because he won a ton of football games.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not condoning whatever he may have done, and if he definitely knew about Sandusky's actions, he sure as hell should have done something about it. However, the reason people put him on a pedestal wasn't just because he taught his players how to win football games.

I have no doubt that current players will leave (as evidenced in DrPhil's latest post), but I wouldn't be quick to assume that every parent would turn their child away from playing there. I've definitely seen the power of Penn State.

..NOT to be confused with the power of the football team.

[honeychile]

^ One very important correction. Many Pennsylvanians live in "mixed marriages", where one spouse went to PSU, the other to Pitt. The rivalry between the two is incredible. So, it's more like:

Most of Pennsylvania = Penn State

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by als463

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

I don't mean to sound snarky, but the line you highlighted was not referring to any parent of any child going to Penn State. I was responding to a question 33girl had asked about whether future football players whose parents had ties to Penn State might be willing to turn down football scholarships at other schools and instead choose to go to Penn State and play football without a scholarship, so while the story about your sorority sister is sweet (and I mean that sincerely), unless her daughter is a future Division I scholarship level football kicker - it's not really relevant.

Neither are points about regular students who get academic scholarships or grants to other schools and choose to go to Penn State instead. I'm sure there are many Penn State parents who would prefer their children stay at or go to Penn State even if they have scholarships to other schools because that is a sentiment common to alums at many schools. Likewise, there are students at many schools who have turned down scholarships at other schools because they had long-standing parental ties, religous ties, state ties or a personal emotional ties to the schools they chose. None of this is unique to Penn State.

Again, what I stated was that I thought it unlikely a Penn State alum who had a son that was capable of playing Division I Big 10 football on a scholarship would encourage that child turn down other division I football scholarships to schools with equal or superior football and/or academic traditions in order to go play football at Penn State on no scholarship given the sanctions the football program will be under.

First, there are a limited number of Penn State alums that have male children capable of getting division I football scholarships and playing at a competitive level in the Big 10. For the few that do fit that description this could mean saddling themselves or their parents with considerable debt (particularly if they are OOS), but more importantly, if they had any NFL aspirations at all (and most do), they would be knowingly putting those aspirations at risk given Penn State football's current situation.

If the kid doesn't particularly want to go to the NFL or doesn't think they have a shot, and if their parents can afford it without incurring major debt then I can certainly see them making that choice, but that's a very small group and it won't be enough to help the football program much - which was my point.

[33girl]

ASTalumna06 summed it up. You really can't understand it unless/until you live here. And for a lot of PSU students and alumni, it has ZERO to do with football or the coach (past, present or future).

I think a big part of it is that so many businesses in the state (like the steel mills) have been lost, and Penn State is still booming and then some.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ASTalumna06 summed it up. You really can't understand it unless/until you live here. And for a lot of PSU students and alumni, it has ZERO to do with football or the coach (past, present or future).

I think a big part of it is that so many businesses in the state (like the steel mills) have been lost, and Penn State is still booming and then some.

I completely agree that the issues Penn State is currently dealing with have little to do with football. My point to Als463 was that the quote she referenced from me and responded to was a conversation about the specific consequences the football team was dealing with and had nothing to do with the general Penn State population.

The rest of this isn't directed specifically at you but at several of the previous posts from those who went to Penn State or live in the state. I have to say I'm a little bothered/concerned about the "Penn State is an experience separate from all others and no one else can understand how special it is to all of us" attitude. I understand it is special to all of you and you are just trying to get that across and you don't mean it to sound this way, but it comes across as a little insulting and provincial.

As Dr. Phil stated, Penn State did not invent the wheel when it comes to the loyalty and love its alums and the state feel for the school. While it's true that unless you live there you don't understand the feelings people have for Penn State, it is equally true that no one from Pennsylvania or Penn State understands the feelings someone from say, West Virginia has for WVU or someone from Nebraska has for well, Nebraska.

Saying "You'd have to live here to understand" is a little like someone coming on and saying, "Hey, I'm sure all GLO's are good, but the XYZ's are a little different. We have an especially strong sisterhood. Our rituals are so touching and so many girls would rather be nothing if they can't be an XYZ. XYZ just means so much to us. It's our everything. We do things differently. You just have to be an XYZ to really understand." Come to think of it- that has happened on this forum before or some version of it and most of you quite understandably view it as an insult.

On a deeper level - I really wish you were all right and that kind of vehement loyalty and school love to Penn State or any other organization was unique. Unfortunately, I doubt it's true. That actually scares me more because while I know that all of you are completely appalled by what happened there and in no way condone it, that prevalent attitude or an extreme version of it, in my view, is what allowed it to continue and caused it to be covered up. It's what typically leads people to the kind of horrific decisions that the Penn State administrators and Joe Paterno made.

It's one step from "We're a little bit special and unique" to "Because we are special and unique, we can do things differently and the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to us." That sums up the "Penn State culture" that the NCAA and Freeh report denounced because it is so dangerous.

Anytime you let who you are as an individual get that tied into an institution, organization, school, business - even a family you run the risk of putting it before all else and letting your personal sense of right and wrong go out the window. You start justifying wrong behavior for the sake of that group and that's what these men did. It's what several bishops in the Catholic church did. It's what thousands of families across the country do every day.

Again, I'm not singling out Penn State because I don't think your attitudes and feelings are unique. I think many of us in many states have that same depth of feeling for our schools, churches, organizations, businesses, families, whatever, and we all need to take a step back and check ourselves because there but for the grace of God....

PS - 33Girl - I wrote this out before I say knight_shadow's response and your response to that, so I appreciate that you already understood my point and I'm preaching to the choir.

I do want to add that while I get your point about Penn State being important because the state is economically depressed, so it makes a successful program like Penn State even more important, look just to your south to see a state constantly in economic depression with NOTHING to hang onto but a college football program. In even that Penn State is not unique and I assure you WVa can one up you there.

And I'm really sorry this is so long, but I've kind of been holding this for awhile.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Will everyone stop jumping down ASTAlumna06's throat if she qualifies her statements with "In the Northeast"?

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Greek_or_Geek?

I think you need to get out more then. Start with maybe visits to Alabama and Mississippi. Then you might be able to comprehend how spectacularly commonplace Penn State's relationship to its public is.

I need to get out more? In the last 10 years, I've lived in 4 different states, and in just the last 2 years, I've traveled to 10+ others for both business and pleasure. "Getting out" isn't a problem for me.

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The sorority analogy wasn't actually directed at anything you said - it was directed more at what several PSU posters in this thread and another on this same subject have said over the past few months. I don't think this means any of them or you condone the actions taken by Penn State's administration - I'm just saying that on some level - the "it's just different here" or "our relationship to our school is special" can be dangerous and can lead to those actions.

.....

As Greek or Geek suggested, you need to spend some time in a state where the opposite of your Boston experience is true - a state where the university and specifically the university's football program is pretty much all there is for many reasons (once again I offer up Nebraska). Or they're raised in a culture where college football qualifies as a religous belief system (Texas). What seems unique and unusual to you would seem expected and standard for them.

Originally Posted by thewasher418

May I introduce you to my home state (Louisiana), where people who have NEVER SET FOOT in Baton Rouge, never went to ANY college or went to another one (like I did), live and breathe LSU football. This is not unique.

Originally Posted by AXOmom

.....
Instead I would hope that if many pointed out to us a particular situation we believe is unique to us really isn't and we should broaden our horizons a bit before drawing that conclusion - we would consider that our previous assumptions might be incorrect and adjust them.

.....

She said she grew up in the northeast and she stated that the type of relationship between Pennsylvania and Penn State doesn't exist there. That I understood, and I stated that I could see where that would be the case. All I suggested was this probably explained why the situation in Pennsylvania seemed unique to her, but if she had spent time in another part of the country she probably wouldn't find that to be the case, and she should probably do that before making the assumption that it is a unique situation.

Can someone please point out to me where I said that Penn State's situation is unique? Where did I say that there are no other schools in the country that can compare to PSU?

I originally agreed with als463's response to this:

Originally Posted by AXOmom

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

... and basically said that with the Penn State pride I've seen among students, alumni, and PA residents, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that every parent of a football player would turn their child away from playing at PSU.

[thewasher418]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Thank you!
Can someone please point out to me where I said that Penn State's situation is unique? Where did I say that there are no other schools in the country that can compare to PSU?

The statement I quoted in my previous post, with the bolded part I added myself for emphasis, is not those exact words but implies it very strongly. I hate quote-fests so I won't quote it again.

And I think what everybody is trying to say is not that you or any Penn Stater is provincial/narrowminded/whatever, but rather that the 'mystique' that keeps being mentioned over and over- bonding alumni together, bonding the whole state's residents together, making the school an integral part of their lives whether they attended or not- is not as rare and unique as imagined. Nothing you couldn't find in Oklahoma, West Virginia, Louisiana, Georgia, Ohio, etc. And it's possible that blind belief in that not-actually-so-special 'mystique,' left unchecked, allowed such terrible things to happen. Could it happen elsewhere? Sure, because we humans can be terrible like that.

[als463]

Okay, for the sake of reasoning and not to make anyone feel the least bit slighted (since that is definitely not what I intended), the point that I was trying to make--thank you ASTAlumna06 for helping me try to explain and agreeing--was that when you have such a strong alumni base, many times a family may choose to go into debt before sending their child elsewhere. Let me use LSU, Alabama, Michigan, whatever school we want to use that is super into football (or that university for whatever reason).

If Matthew Michigan comes from a long line of Michigan Alumni and a big scandal like what is going on now happened there, I believe that he may stay at Michigan because his family is all about the generational pride in the university. That is the only point I was trying to make. You can change that to Louis LSU or Adam Alabama (or whatever you want--it doesn't matter--just pick a school) and that may happen. That is the point I was making. If my future child chose Penn State over many other schools, I would be over the moon because I bleed blue and white (not for the sports, either). It's just something to think about when talking about students leaving the team. That's all I was trying to say. I hope I explained it without offending/ upsetting anyone.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by als463

Okay, for the sake of reasoning and not to make anyone feel the least bit slighted (since that is definitely not what I intended), the point that I was trying to make--thank you ASTAlumna06 for helping me try to explain and agreeing--was that when you have such a strong alumni base, many times a family may choose to go into debt before sending their child elsewhere. Let me use LSU, Alabama, Michigan, whatever school we want to use that is super into football (or that university for whatever reason).

If Matthew Michigan comes from a long line of Michigan Alumni and a big scandal like what is going on now happened there, I believe that he may stay at Michigan because his family is all about the generational pride in the university. That is the only point I was trying to make. You can change that to Louis LSU or Adam Alabama (or whatever you want--it doesn't matter--just pick a school) and that may happen. That is the point I was making. If my future child chose Penn State over many other schools, I would be over the moon because I bleed blue and white (not for the sports, either). It's just something to think about when talking about students leaving the team. That's all I was trying to say. I hope I explained it without offending/ upsetting anyone.

Isn't this a massive strawman though? Like, this point literally doesn't matter to this discussion, at all - and nobody really argued against it with any real aplomb.

The point you were making is that Penn State will still be able to field a football team? OK, acknowledged.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Isn't this a massive strawman though? Like, this point literally doesn't matter to this discussion, at all - and nobody really argued against it with any real aplomb.

The point you were making is that Penn State will still be able to field a football team? OK, acknowledged.

That is why als463 comes in these threads.

(((als463)))

[als463]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Isn't this a massive strawman though? Like, this point literally doesn't matter to this discussion, at all - and nobody really argued against it with any real aplomb.

The point you were making is that Penn State will still be able to field a football team? OK, acknowledged.

WOW. You.Are.A.Jackass. It was brought up in the discussion about how some people won't leave the team simply because they may have family members who attended Penn State and feel a sense of tradition. If you didn't see that in this thread at all, then maybe you should get your eyes checked.

You sure had me pegged! I'm a HUGE football fan! I live and breathe football! In fact, I graduated from a major basketball university and I literally breathe that sport too! Let's hope that no big scandals happen because I would hate for my beloved sports to be tarnished at that university too! Clearly, I attended Penn State for the football team! That's all us inbred Penn State rednecks have going for us. We don't do no book-learnin' or anything remotely important. Who cares about academics or raising money for philanthropy? Not us! We are too busy worryin' about whether or not we can play ball!

I'm pretty annoyed by the fact that I am expected to apologize for my university over and over again. I didn't do anything wrong. Frankly, I don't really care what you think.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by als463

WOW. You.Are.A.Jackass. It was brought up in the discussion about how some people won't leave the team simply because they may have family members who attended Penn State and feel a sense of tradition. If you didn't see that in this thread at all, then maybe you should get your eyes checked.

You sure had me pegged! I'm a HUGE football fan! I live and breathe football! In fact, I graduated from a major basketball university and I literally breathe that sport too! Let's hope that no big scandals happen because I would hate for my beloved sports to be tarnished at that university too! Clearly, I attended Penn State for the football team! That's all us inbred Penn State rednecks have going for us. We don't do no book-learnin' or anything remotely important. Who cares about academics or raising money for philanthropy? Not us! We are too busy worryin' about whether or not we can play ball!

I'm pretty annoyed by the fact that I am expected to apologize for my university over and over again. I didn't do anything wrong. Frankly, I don't really care what you think.

LOL. Does it hurt you that much? Really?

You kind of seem like a jackass in these threads. You are absent from any discourse but show up for discussions like this. You were definitely not this visible, passionate, and clearly outraged when discussing the details of the allegations, trial, and conviction.

We get it! You give a darn about your alma mater and are silent until it comes time to express how much you give a darn. We get it!

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by thewasher418

The statement I quoted in my previous post, with the bolded part I added myself for emphasis, is not those exact words but implies it very strongly. I hate quote-fests so I won't quote it again.

All I said was that I've never experienced anything like it before. And I haven't. Maybe if I moved to Alabama, or Texas, or other states that people threw at me, I might.

And I think what everybody is trying to say is not that you or any Penn Stater is provincial/narrowminded/whatever, but rather that the 'mystique' that keeps being mentioned over and over- bonding alumni together, bonding the whole state's residents together, making the school an integral part of their lives whether they attended or not- is not as rare and unique as imagined. Nothing you couldn't find in Oklahoma, West Virginia, Louisiana, Georgia, Ohio, etc. And it's possible that blind belief in that not-actually-so-special 'mystique,' left unchecked, allowed such terrible things to happen. Could it happen elsewhere? Sure, because we humans can be terrible like that.

Again, I never said it was rare.

Maybe we misunderstood each other somewhere in there, but again, it wasn't my intention to suggest that Penn State is a special and unique snowflake.

I'll leave all of that kind of talk to the handful of super-fabulous PNMs who are sure to show up on this site in the near future.