Can you be Christian and Greek?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Hmmm... "Highly dismissive of the slave experience in America". OK, I find this statement quite interesting. Rather broad and inflammatory but unsupported statements are made regarding a major World Religion which statements approach it from a very narrowly focused point of view. This view proposes that Christianity in the 21st Century is a construct of a filtered version of 18th and 19th Century white slave masters apparently designed to keep slaves "in their place".
Absent any compelling evidence supporting this argument yet to be provided by the author I am challenging him to support his argument by offering evidence drawn from the whole sweep of the Christian history and tradition as well as secular history and tradition over two thousand years that Christianity is a whip in the hands of these white slave masters.
I do find this pointedly offensive as it dismisses the message of Christ as nothing but rhetoric of oppression. It ignores the facts of history and the two greatest commandments given by Christ that we "Love the Lord our God and that we love our neighbors as ourselves".
I do not propose to tell anyone what they should believe but I will rise to the defense of what I believe.

Good God, learn to quote. Your posts are ridiculously obnoxious to read (in fact, worse than those without paragraph breaks).

No one is attacking your beliefs. It's just that different groups and individuals have different experiences with Christianity and expressing those experiences is not an attack.

[Andre Turner]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Religion is the great opiate of the masses. What better tool to teach folks that their servitude and low status is acceptable than by teaching (by force if necessary) that it is ordained by a higher being who will punish all of those who refuse to concede the point?

American slavery certainly wouldn't be the first time religion or even Christianity was used for such a purpose. It certainly won't be the last. In the context of history, there's nothing all that special about American slavery in that regard.



I find myself thinking that he needs to get over it. I'm not sure how Jesus' race is relevant to anything in the Bible unless you're looking for a reason to establish victimhood.

Was Christianity at one time widely interpreted to allow slavery? Of course. Is it now? Nope. That single point might be the only point on which Christianity as a whole has monolithically evolved to. So yes, historically, religion was used as a tool of oppression for American slaves, for European serfs, for Roman slaves, etc. It isn't anymore.

So outside of the context of historical discussion, how is any of this relevant today?

Typical response from an arrogant white man. Getting over slavery is not possible, when my people are still slaves. Many people believe that the enslavement of black men, women and children is a thing of the past. The world believes that America has set her black slaves free from the bondage of their white slave masters. Even some black people in America believe that they are actually free from the mastery and control of their white oppressors. In fact, most black people in America today have been psychologically duped into believing that they actually operate according to their own will. These misled perceptions cannot be further from the actual truth. We are still indeed, in thought, and in fact, still a slave.

Does the slave master still have to whip, chain, and beat us? No. The slave master does not have to chain us down or beat us anymore, because we (as black people) are not doing anything, and we (as black people) are not going anywhere. We have freedom in name, but not in definition.

Your arrogant typical response to what I said doesn't surprise me. It also tells me that you do not even know what the word "slave" means. The word "slave" means "one who is dominated by some outside influence and having no personal rights or freedom."

The questions I have for my people are these: Are we dominated by some outside influence other than our own influence? Do we have our personal rights and our true freedom? Do we really know and understand what freedom actually is? Have we ever truly experienced true freedom? Do we even remember what true freedom was all about? What do we know other than what white people have told us? Nothing. What do we know other than what black folks have told us that they heard from other white folks? Nothing.

Yes, the physical slavery is "somewhat" over, but what about the biological slavery? What about the economical slavery? What about the sociological slavery? What about the spiritual slavery? What about the psychological slavery?

The physical chains were just one aspect amidst the many horrors of slavery. The chains are off our hands, but we are not producing anything. The chains are off our feet, but we are not going anywhere. This is because those physical chains were the least of our worries. We still have the biggest chain of all wrapped around our minds, hearts, and souls. Our minds are still locked-down, and it is our mind that controls our hands and our feet. Once you have the mind, the body will follow, which is what 4 centuries of bondage and oppression has done. Your arrogance, and ignorance explains why you would just tell somebody to "get over" 4 centuries of bondage, control, abuse, murder, rape, and oppression from your people. What your people have done, still very much so effects black people right now. So it relevant today.

Originally Posted by dekeguy

No, I am not pulling any race card, sir.
============================

Peter: Gee, you could have fooled me! Your whole argument is about playing the race card and attacking Christianity as a racist tool for oppression. You ignore the historical truth that Christians have suffered persecution for many many centuries in defense of the rights and dignity of all humankind.
============================

Andre: If I was, what would be wrong with me pulling the race card? Your people have been pulling the race card for the past four centuries and still continue to pull the race card that seems to always be in your favor.
============================

Peter: My people? Who are they, pray tell, who have been playing the race card for four centuries? I am an American, incidentally of mostly French origin and liniage. I am a Roman Catholic both by accident of birth and by considered and informed choice. The card I play is my obligation to follow the two great commandments given by Jesus. That card has been around for about two thousand years.
===========================

Andre: Now, you tell me, how many people with blonde hair and blue eyes were living in the Middle East during the time of Jesus? It is impossible for there to have ever been a blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus... something that the slave master instilled in the minds of black people.
============================

Peter: I suppose you missed my comment about the historical Jesus being swarthy complected, dark curley haired semite? No way was He a blond, blue eyed, scandinavian.
============================

Andre: My people were also directly and indirectly taught (by the slave master) to hate their natural black selves. "Black is bad". Wear white to weddings, and black to funerals. Devil's food cake is black and angel's food cake is white. If I know something bad about you, I could "blackmail" you. You can tell a little "white lie", but you better not tell a big bold "black lie". Do you see the psychology in this? My people were conditioned (by the slave master) to hate everything about themselves that was natural and black. We hate our black beauty because we were taught to define our own beauty according to these white, anglo, caucasoidal, European, westernized, beauty standards. As an example: a white, blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus. This means that anything less than blue eyes and blonde hair is considered less than beautiful. The further you get away from blonde hair and blue eyes, the uglier you get. This is what we were taught. This means that if you got black eyes, black, tight, nappy hair and dark black skin, you are the ugliest thing on the planet. What is sad is the slave master was successful in the brainwashing of black people and this still continues to this very day. As an example: Chris Rock’s "Good Hair" movie. The question I have to my people is why do we want to look like the slave master?...the murderous, cold-blooded, rapist "mutha-fucka". I said rapist "mutha-fucka" for a reason, not just to use foul language. I am speaking the truth. Let me define what a "mutha-fucka" is. A "mutha-fucka" is an individual who is the "fucka of muthas". The white man is a historical "fucka of muthas" around the world. A historical rapist. He was the "fucka" of our "fore-muthas". This is why we come in so many different shades of black now. I find it to be sad that we want to look like, and worship (the image of a white Jesus), the same image type of people who hung us from trees. I'm not arguing your religious beliefs. What I am saying is we have been taught that Jesus is white, with blue eyes, and blonde hair, when that is impossible.
===========================

Peter: Your argument seems obsessed with race. I was never taught to worship a vanilla Jesus. I was taught that Jesus was the Son of God who came to deliver ALL humankind and offer us ALL the gift of salvation.
So, following your argument, I suppose because I have dark hair and dark eyes I am ugly? I never thought I was great looking but I never thought I was ugly either. I would suggest that we both know and appreciate many women of great beauty who just happen to be Black, White, Asian, or any of the many variations in the range of humankind. Same goes for our male side of the human race.
I never worshiped a blond blue eyed Jesus because even when I was a little kid it seemed obvious that He looked more like an Egyptian than a Guy from Norway. In any event it didn't seem to matter, either He was who I believed He was or there was no point to it. What he looked like was an irrelevance when measured against Who He is.
I have no sympathy for oppressive slave masters who I figure had a lot of explaining to do when they faced Jesus, but I have great admiration for the countless thousands who proclaimed their belief in Christ at the cost of their lives over all of the many centuries that Christians have been persecuted for the faith.
==========================

Andre: I am not using any race card, sir, I am only speaking the truth. I have not lied about anything here.
==========================

I did not suggest that you lied, only that your argument seems based on unsupported and inflammatory statements. I suggested that you might want to approach the question of 21st Century Christianity in light of two thousand years of carefully preserved multi-source historical Christianity.
You might remember that some of the greatest fathers of the church were not Northern European but Asian and African. The greatest philosopher of the early church was Saint Augustine of Hippo, African bishop of an African diocese.

I didn't say anything about the Bible not being true based on its history. What I said was that there is truth in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. But, the true teachings of Jesus is not what the slave master taught us. There is truth in the Bible if you can break through all of the symbolism. The teachings of Jesus are very valuable, but that is not what the white man taught us. I said earlier that this is not the teaching that the slave master has given the preacher to preach.

No, I am not obsessed with race. Your people seem to be the only people obsessed with race,to the point where it looks to be a sickness to me. What I am doing here is telling the truth. The first thing a white man wants to say is that it isn't his fault. No it is not your fault, but are you reaping the benefits of white America, sir? Yes, you are. Since you are French why don't you refer to yourself as a European American? Most of your people are of European decent. Since this is true, why do your people refer to every other race of people that are not white, as African American, Asian American, etc. and even refer to Americans themselves as Native American, but yet refer to yourselves as white, or Caucasian?

No, what you do not understand is that we have been taught Christianity by the slave master. Is King James a Saint? Why does he have the authority to add his two cents to the Bible? This is what we were taught. We were taught this and we accepted this with no questions asked. We have accepted the sun-up to sun-down hard slave labor, with no questions asked. We have accepted our own families being broken-up and sold away with no questions asked, the very reason why black families are still to this very day, broken-up. We have accepted the brutal raping of our mothers and our sisters, with no questions asked. We have accepted the beating, dismembering, hanging, lynching, of our brothers and our fathers with no questions asked. Yes, and from the same man who has given us all this pure hell, we accepted "his teachings" of Christianity with no questions asked. Yes, this is the absolute truth, sir!

So you and I both know that we did not receive the "true" word of the "true" God from your people. Think about it. Why would a white man, who spends more than half of his time trying to kill us and our minds (which he has succeeded in doing), turn around to spend the other half of his time trying to bring our minds back to life? That wouldn't make any sense, at all. How could the same man, who has taken on the mind, heart, and will of a devil, turn around and show us the straight and narrow path to God? Think about that real good. I would be a fool to believe anything a devil says to me about God, based on "his teachings".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Andre Turner

Your arrogance, and ignorance explains why you would just tell somebody to "get over" 4 centuries of bondage, control, abuse, murder, rape, and oppression from your people. What your people have done, still very much so effects black people right now. So it relevant today.

Only 4 centuries? Pick up a history book and look up European feudalism. Somehow those former medieval serfs (slaves) are now perfectly upwardly mobile and arguably more free than we are in the U.S. in many respects. The ancient world existed for far more than 400 years and slavery right along with it. Somehow, the ancestors of slaves weren't whining in the forums about some sort of metaphorical servitude still being imposed on them.

Sure, black folks in the U.S. have some serious socioeconomic challenges and yes, discrimination happens. But is it slavery? Hell no. Do you have less freedom than I do? I don't see it. Cite facts, not silly metaphors.

What biological, "economical" [sic], psychological, sociological, religious slavery is being imposed on you right now? Did "the whites" tell you how you have to think, pray, spend your money, etc. as some monolithic and malevolent entity? Or do you just not like the culture you were born into?

It is estimated that at the beginning of the 19th century, 75% of the world's population existed under some form of bondage. Slavery wasn't abolished in Europe until the mid 1800s. Somehow their former slaves' progeny have actually gotten over it.

Slavery was a horrible thing and a blight on this nation's history, but aside from some metaphors, what freedoms are you lacking today?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Only 4 centuries? Pick up a history book and look up European feudalism. Somehow those former medieval serfs (slaves) are now perfectly upwardly mobile and arguably more free than we are in the U.S. in many respects. The ancient world existed for far more than 400 years and slavery right along with it. Somehow, the ancestors of slaves weren't whining in the forums about some sort of metaphorical servitude still being imposed on them.

Sure, black folks in the U.S. have some serious socioeconomic challenges and yes, discrimination happens. But is it slavery? Hell no. Do you have less freedom than I do? I don't see it. Cite facts, not silly metaphors.

What biological, "economical" [sic], psychological, sociological, religious slavery is being imposed on you right now? Did "the whites" tell you how you have to think, pray, spend your money, etc. as some monolithic and malevolent entity? Or do you just not like the culture you were born into?

It is estimated that at the beginning of the 19th century, 75% of the world's population existed under some form of bondage. Slavery wasn't abolished in Europe until the mid 1800s. Somehow their former slaves' progeny have actually gotten over it.

Slavery was a horrible thing and a blight on this nation's history, but aside from some metaphors, what freedoms are you lacking today?

Shut the hell up.

That is the nicest phrasing that I could think of.

[Andre Turner]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Only 4 centuries? Pick up a history book and look up European feudalism. Somehow those former medieval serfs (slaves) are now perfectly upwardly mobile and arguably more free than we are in the U.S. in many respects. The ancient world existed for far more than 400 years and slavery right along with it. Somehow, the ancestors of slaves weren't whining in the forums about some sort of metaphorical servitude still being imposed on them.

Sure, black folks in the U.S. have some serious socioeconomic challenges and yes, discrimination happens. But is it slavery? Hell no. Do you have less freedom than I do? I don't see it. Cite facts, not silly metaphors.

What biological, "economical" [sic], psychological, sociological, religious slavery is being imposed on you right now? Did "the whites" tell you how you have to think, pray, spend your money, etc. as some monolithic and malevolent entity? Or do you just not like the culture you were born into?

It is estimated that at the beginning of the 19th century, 75% of the world's population existed under some form of bondage. Slavery wasn't abolished in Europe until the mid 1800s. Somehow their former slaves' progeny have actually gotten over it.

Slavery was a horrible thing and a blight on this nation's history, but aside from some metaphors, what freedoms are you lacking today?

The more you post, the more you paint yourself to look even more arrogant and ignorant, just like your white brothers. I cannot expect you to believe that we are still enslaved, because you and your people are not oppressed. You now, once again, are spreading your lies, trying to place yourselves in the same boat we are in and have been in for over four centuries, -bondage, which is now within our minds. The body is only going to mimic what the mind is filled with. Our minds are full of over 400 years of what I have already mentioned, therefore we are still enslaved. Is your mind filled with this same false teaching? No it is not, therefore I don't expect you to understand, or even care, which explains this post and your "get over it" remark from your previous post.

I also see what you are trying to do here, although I refuse to buy any of it. If I was a white man like you, living in this Day of Judgment, with an entire planet full of red, yellow, brown, and black people that are angry as hell at me for my many crimes and atrocities committed against them for thousands of years, I'd all of a sudden be friendly too, trying to place myself in the same boat they are in, like you have done here. What I am saying here is white folks will openly accept black folks as long as we are what your people want us to be. Slaves! As long as we are watered-down, weak-minded, submissive, butt-kissing, boot-licking, fiddle-playing, foot-shuffling, shoe-shining, tongue-biting (which I refuse to do) porch-dancing, bent-over, house-negro type of colored person, etc. white folks will bend over backwards for an Uncle Tom like this.

Ever since we have been on the blood-soaked soil of America, we have been catching all types of hell from the hell raiser (your people). Yes, we have caught hell from these devils, but we have kept the hell that we have caught. So as a result, we have become hell raisers ourselves, second only to "The Hell Raiser". I believe that we should give this hell back, to whom it is that we caught it from, - your people.

We were not these "niggas", bitches, punks, and hoes (words that we call ourselves today, that we have learned from your people through four centuries of false teaching) we are today, before we were kidnapped to this country. This mentality and character does not belong to us, so I believe that we should give it back. We should return it to the sender, -your people. We need to:

Give the white man back his body-poisoning addictive drinks. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his cancer-causing cigarettes. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his death plaguing crack-pipe. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his needle sticking heroin drug. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his blue-eyed contact lenses. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his hair-straitening chemicals. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his lying, thieving, deceiving, whole criminal mind. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his disrespecting, chauvinistic, attitude toward women. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his greedy, cut-throat, materialistic, sick mentality. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his egotistical, insecure, jealous and envious weak frame of mind. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his death-to-go fast-food diet. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his blue-eyed, blonde, bimbo, brain-less, butt-less, skinny, little weak white woman. You can have that back with a quickness. PLEASE RETURN TO SENDER.

I believe we need to give all this madness back to the white man. Give all this hell back to whom it is that we have caught it from. Just because we caught it doesn't mean we should keep it. Because we have chosen to keep it, keeps us in slavery and bondage. We need to give back his loose low-life morals, because they are not ours. But, accept only what is our own and be only what is ourselves. We need to accept our own divine righteous morals and be our own righteous divine black selves. And anything other than that, give it back. But this is not possible, because this is what your people are subconsciously afraid of.

Any time someone has to spend 90% of their time (by any means necessary) trying to hold another person down, he fears that person. So yes, WE are very much so STILL in slavery, lacking the same freedom you have TODAY, and living the lies your people have taught us. Why are there so many black people in prison? Why are more black people put to death than white people? Why are there more black on black crimes in this country than any other race of people? Why are there more black people living in poverty than white people? Why are there so many fatherless black children in this country? Why are there more black families that are broken up than white families? Why are Amercians living on reservations? I don't refer to them as "Native Amercians" because they are not. And then your people have the balls to refer to other folks as illegal aliens.

No, we DO NOT have the same freedom that your people have TODAY. You are arrogant and ignorant, so I do not expect you to care or understand how we are enslaved to this very day.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Andre Turner

The more you post, the more you paint yourself to look even more arrogant and ignorant, just like your white brothers. I cannot expect you to believe that we are still enslaved, because you and your people are not oppressed. You now, once again, are spreading your lies, trying to place yourselves in the same boat we are in and have been in for over four centuries, -bondage, which is now within our minds. The body is only going to mimic what the mind is filled with. Our minds are full of over 400 years of what I have already mentioned, therefore we are still enslaved. Is your mind filled with this same false teaching? No it is not, therefore I don't expect you to understand, or even care, which explains this post and your "get over it" remark from your previous post.

I also see what you are trying to do here, although I refuse to buy any of it. If I was a white man like you, living in this Day of Judgment, with an entire planet full of red, yellow, brown, and black people that are angry as hell at me for my many crimes and atrocities committed against them for thousands of years, I'd all of a sudden be friendly too, trying to place myself in the same boat they are in, like you have done here. What I am saying here is white folks will openly accept black folks as long as we are what your people want us to be. Slaves! As long as we are watered-down, weak-minded, submissive, butt-kissing, boot-licking, fiddle-playing, foot-shuffling, shoe-shining, tongue-biting (which I refuse to do) porch-dancing, bent-over, house-negro type of colored person, etc. white folks will bend over backwards for an Uncle Tom like this.

Ever since we have been on the blood-soaked soil of America, we have been catching all types of hell from the hell raiser (your people). Yes, we have caught hell from these devils, but we have kept the hell that we have caught. So as a result, we have become hell raisers ourselves, second only to "The Hell Raiser". I believe that we should give this hell back, to whom it is that we caught it from, - your people.

We were not these "niggas", bitches, punks, and hoes (words that we call ourselves today, that we have learned from your people through four centuries of false teaching) we are today, before we were kidnapped to this country. This mentality and character does not belong to us, so I believe that we should give it back. We should return it to the sender, -your people. We need to:

Give the white man back his body-poisoning addictive drinks. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his cancer-causing cigarettes. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his death plaguing crack-pipe. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his needle sticking heroin drug. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his blue-eyed contact lenses. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his hair-straitening chemicals. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his lying, thieving, deceiving, whole criminal mind. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his disrespecting, chauvinistic, attitude toward women. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his greedy, cut-throat, materialistic, sick mentality. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his egotistical, insecure, jealous and envious weak frame of mind. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his death-to-go fast-food diet. Return to sender.

Give the white man back his blue-eyed, blonde, bimbo, brain-less, butt-less, skinny, little weak white woman. You can have that back with a quickness. PLEASE RETURN TO SENDER.

I believe we need to give all this madness back to the white man. Give all this hell back to whom it is that we have caught it from. Just because we caught it doesn't mean we should keep it. Because we have chosen to keep it, keeps us in slavery and bondage. We need to give back his loose low-life morals, because they are not ours. But, accept only what is our own and be only what is ourselves. We need to accept our own divine righteous morals and be our own righteous divine black selves. And anything other than that, give it back. But this is not possible, because this is what your people are subconsciously afraid of.

Any time someone has to spend 90% of their time (by any means necessary) trying to hold another person down, he fears that person. So yes, WE are very much so STILL in slavery, lacking the same freedom you have TODAY, and living the lies your people have taught us. Why are there so many black people in prison? Why are more black people put to death than white people? Why are there more black on black crimes in this country than any other race of people? Why are there more black people living in poverty than white people? Why are there so many fatherless black children in this country? Why are there more black families that are broken up than white families? Why are Amercians living on reservations? I don't refer to them as "Native Amercians" because they are not. And then your people have the balls to refer to other folks as illegal aliens.

No, we DO NOT have the same freedom that your people have TODAY. You are arrogant and ignorant, so I do not expect you to care or understand how we are enslaved to this very day.

I agree---minus some of the wording.

For the record, there is more intraracial crime than interracial crime for every race and ethnicity. The ranking of incidents and rates aside, violent crime is more likely to be white-on-white, Black-on-Black, etc. This is an important reminder because most people do not read data to know whether there are more Black-on-Black crimes than white-on-white crimes. They simply see images and say that Black people are committing crimes against each other as though Black people are the only people who have a higher rate of victimization towards the people with whom they have the greatest access and opportunities for crime in racially, ethnically, culturally, and socioeconomically segregated societies like the United States of America.

And Kevin's posts are definitely arrogant and ignorant.

[cheerfulgreek]

I have a question for Andre Turner.

I read some of your comments, and I don't disagree with you -I mean, with what African Americans have been through and still continue to go through not only in this country, but other parts of the world. However, based on what I read, I just think our spiritual views are different. I'm not saying that yours are wrong, they just seem different. It's just that I believe that God is spirit which encompasses all genders and races. In Him, there is no woman or man, slave or free, Greek or Jew. I just believe He is the Giver, Sustainer, and empowering Force of life. I just don't believe it to be possible to construct and maintain a life of any great quality without Him as the foundation.

I mean, no one is an island. God created us to connect with others, and I just don't believe the race of those people we choose to connect with matters, but the upbringing and character does. I guess I'm just one of those who believes that only in having a relationship with God can we have great relationships with ourselves and others. It's just that your life will work only as well as the lives you surround yourself with, regardless of race or gender. I don't disagree with you, but do you believe in the vision that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had and shared about his vision of what this country should be like when it comes to race? You don't think we're there, or making progress to some degree? I'm not arguing your points because they are valid, and I agree with most of them, I just asked that question because I'm curious to know. That's all.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by naraht

It will be interesting to see how this changes in the next 20 years or so....

To see how what changes? Do you agree with Kevin's claims?

If Kevin has not already done so, I urge Kevin to read Ricky Sherover-Marcuse's works including the "A Working Perspective on Jewish Liberation." Jews are not monolithic. There are Jews who share Sherover-Marcuse's sentiment in 2012. There are Jews who talk about the present day impact of past events and current events that impact Jewish communities around the world. There are Jews who belong to organizations so that none of this will ever be forgotten. There are Jews who are angry as hell. There are Jews who make it clear that although some Jews identify as being of the white diaspora and benefitting from white privilege in certain contexts, there are still forms of Jewish oppression around the world. There are Holocaust museums that receive a lot of guests whereas I have had people tell me that museums dedicated to the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, Jim Crow, and the 1960s Civil Rights Movement(s) are no longer necessary. People (especially outsiders) cannot pick and choose which of these struggles have present day significance and who needs to get over the past, remnants of the past, and the present.

A common misconception that Kevin apparently shares is that racial, ethnic, cultural, or religious minority groups either spend 100% of their time thinking about, talking about, and being angry over it all or they spend 0% of their time thinking about, talking about, and being angry over it all. There is a middle ground. Most members of minority groups do not feel oppressed 100% of the time. Most members of minority groups do not believe that everything that happens is a result of oppression. Andre Turner has said nothing that would lead me to believe that he thinks people of the African Diaspora have absolutely no free will and 100% of their lives are a result of past and present inequalities. Andre Turner's colorful and sometimes exaggerated wording is not to be confused with a weakness in the larger point that he and other people are making.

[Andre Turner]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I have a question for Andre Turner.

I read some of your comments, and I don't disagree with you -I mean, with what African Americans have been through and still continue to go through not only in this country, but other parts of the world. However, based on what I read, I just think our spiritual views are different. I'm not saying that yours are wrong, they just seem different. It's just that I believe that God is spirit which encompasses all genders and races. In Him, there is no woman or man, slave or free, Greek or Jew. I just believe He is the Giver, Sustainer, and empowering Force of life. I just don't believe it to be possible to construct and maintain a life of any great quality without Him as the foundation.

I mean, no one is an island. God created us to connect with others, and I just don't believe the race of those people we choose to connect with matters, but the upbringing and character does. I guess I'm just one of those who believes that only in having a relationship with God can we have great relationships with ourselves and others. It's just that your life will work only as well as the lives you surround yourself with, regardless of race or gender. I don't disagree with you, but do you believe in the vision that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had and shared about his vision of what this country should be like when it comes to race? You don't think we're there, or making progress to some degree? I'm not arguing your points because they are valid, and I agree with most of them, I just asked that question because I'm curious to know. That's all.

I don't expect you to agree with everything I've said, even though I believe all of it to be true facts. I do agree with a lot of what you've said here. I know what you meant, but it is black people experiencing racial problems "not only in this country but other parts of the world". Black people come from all parts of the world not just Africa, and some "African Americans" have not been outside of this country to experience the racial problems black people have had and still continue to have "in other parts of the world". With the other part of your post, I am not going to get into a discussion about spiritual and religious practices.

No, I do not think we have made any progress. You believe we have made progress because you and your people are not the oppressed. Dr. King was a very sincere and determined leader who made great accomplishments toward the liberation of my people, but there was a problem. There was indeed a problem. The problem was that Dr. King was "dreaming" during a time of blatant "reality". Dr. King's dream was to obtain the "American Dream" for black people, but he didn't realize that we obviously already had the "American Dream". All that black people had was the "American Dream". We (as black people) are asleep having the "American Dream", while white folks are wide awake having the "American Reality".

We are sleepwalking black zombies walking around in a daze, within an "American Dream". We are mentally, spiritually, economically, productively, socially, biologically, and absolutely dead asleep. The "American Dream" is our sleeping pill, and our oppressors have tried to tuck us in permanently by telling us constant bed-time lies.

Dr. King's methodology can no longer be used in our struggle towards liberation. Your people would love us to hold on to Dr. King's philosophy, so that they can keep us in bondage. Why do you think that white society tries to constantly shove Dr. King down our throats, like you have just tried to do here? Your people honor and celebrate Dr. King because they want us to be "non-violent dreamers", when they themselves have done nothing but practice thousands of years of violence towards non-whites. We (as black people) have got to look at this situation for what it is and nothing else. I love Dr. King and all of his great accomplishments, but now, well over 40 years later, we (as black people) can no longer uphold his early philosophies and methodology.

We cannot continue to uphold his philosophies any longer, because these are totally different times that call for totally different philosophies. This is not the "I have a dream" generation. This generation is not really having the "American Dream", we (as black people) are having the "Amerikkkan Nightmare".

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by agzg

Good God, learn to quote. Your posts are ridiculously obnoxious to read (in fact, worse than those without paragraph breaks).

No one is attacking your beliefs. It's just that different groups and individuals have different experiences with Christianity and expressing those experiences is not an attack.

Good God, Learn to read! Unsupported opinion comments designed to define Christianity as a tool of the White Slave Master are very reasonably seen as an attack.
You describe my posts as ridiculously obnoxious to read yet you attack, and like the original author of this issue hurl unsupported opinion in the form of insult. Well, hurl away, your comments generally do provide mild amusement.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Good God, Learn to read! Unsupported opinion comments designed to define Christianity as a tool of the White Slave Master are very reasonably seen as an attack.
You describe my posts as ridiculously obnoxious to read yet you attack, and like the original author of this issue hurl unsupported opinion in the form of insult. Well, hurl away, your comments generally do provide mild amusement.

Unsupported? What? You want to argue whether or not Christianity was taught to slaves through their master's lens? "The Curse of Ham" was a common justification for slavery in its American iteration. Do you really not think that the slaves were taught this?

Lots of religions have been used to justify terrible stuff. Lots of cultural value sets have been used to justify terrible stuff. In this case, we're talking about Christianity. Just because Christians have been oppressed doesn't automatically absolve them of all the oppression they carry out in the Lord's name.

I can read just fine, thanks, you're the one coming to a facts fight with idiocy.

ETA: thanks for fixing your quoting function.

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by agzg

Unsupported? What? You want to argue whether or not Christianity was taught to slaves through their master's lens?

I can read just fine, thanks, you're the one coming to a facts fight with idiocy.

Ah, the shrill tone of emotional overload. You know very well that my point is it is necessary to view Christianity through the lens of two thousand years and not just a very narrow aspect of opinion which may or may not have specific validity but lacks general validity.

Spare me the indignation. Your established track record of vitriol speaks volumes.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by agzg

Unsupported? What? You want to argue whether or not Christianity was taught to slaves through their master's lens? "The Curse of Ham" was a common justification for slavery in its American iteration. Do you really not think that the slaves were taught this?

I can read just fine, thanks, you're the one coming to a facts fight with idiocy.

Dekeguy is being a defensive Christian. Defensive Christians are extremely annoying and unnecessary for the world's largest religion that (along with other religions) has been used by humans to justify atrocities like forms of slavery and involuntary servitude, racism, sexism, and religious intolerance.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Ah, the shrill tone of emotional overload. You know very well that my point is it is necessary to view Christianity through the lens of two thousand years and not just a very narrow aspect of opinion which may or may not have specific validity but lacks general validity.

Spare me the indignation. Your established track record of vitriol speaks volumes.

There's no shrill here, but thanks for the gendered insult. It's not necessary to view anything through 2,000 years. Sorry. 2,000 years don't cancel out the horrible shit that's been done (and is still being done) in the name of Christianity. You may wish it so, but that does not make it so.

This is not exclusive to Christianity. If one cannot view their own religion through a critical lens, they're being blinded.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Dekeguy is being a defensive Christian. Defensive Christians are extremely annoying and unnecessary for the world's largest religion that (along with other religions) has been used by humans to justify atrocities like forms of slavery and involuntary servitude, racism, sexism, and religious intolerance.

Preach.

[dekeguy]

Guys and Gals,

I'll have to pick this up tomorrow. I have a Skeleton Argument to file tomorrow and I need to get it ready for submission.