Law Degree Losing Its Luster?

[Low C Sharp]

to the school, you are considered employed after law school whether you are an associate in a top firm or whether you are a barrista at the Starbuck's on the first floor of the building where that other graduate works.

Not to come to your school's defense, but external forces put that system in place. The ABA, USNews, and NALP have rules about how employment stats are reported; schools must publish them that way.

Schools that really care about transparency will ALSO publish more detailed stats about who's working outside of the legal field, part-time, etc. So I'm not saying the schools are blameless. They just didn't come up with the idea of including the Starbucks baristas as "employed" -- they were asked to do that.

Even when schools are up front about the bad job odds, students ignore the ugly stats or think they'll be in the lucky group. It's just what aggieAXO is saying about the new vets. You can tell them that 90% of the grads are starving...a whole lot of people think, "But I'll be in the 10%."

[KSUViolet06]

There's a level of dissatisfaction with universities in the education field too (like law except without the lawsuits. People don't really do their research on the market and what districts need now and in the foreseeable future. So they wind up with degrees and licenses that districts aren't really interested in, especially with layoffs.

Ex: So you got a degree in Early Childhood Ed (most popular major here.) Don't pitch a fit when you can't find a job. The need in the region is not there for ECED teachers. Don't blame the university for that. Also: The same people who pitch the "no one in this region will hire me" fit are also the same people who REFUSE to relocate.

And I get that not everyone is interested in the high-need teaching fields (SPED, math, science, etc) but when you choose to get a degree in something that doesn't have a ton of need, that's what you sign on for (either not working or relocating.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

And I get that not everyone is interested in the high-need teaching fields (SPED, math, science, etc) but when you choose to get a degree in something that doesn't have a ton of need, that's what you sign on for (either not working or relocating.)

My mom went back to work in 1999 after more than a decade out, and they needed SPED teachers so she taught SPED. There was such a shortage that they were totally cool with that as long as she enrolled in night school within a few months. Teaching SPED and getting another degree at her age was not easy, but that's what was available.

BUT...once you teach SPED for a few years, if you really want, you have the seniority move to non-SPED. My mom never did (and she retires today from the Chicago Public Schools!), but a 22-year-old who wants to get a job should really consider putting in the grunt work.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Caribbean medical schools do serve an important niche. Here in NYC, there's an Urban Doctors Program that will provide scholarships to students to study at Caribbean medical schools with the understanding that they'll work at one of the underserved public hospitals in the city for a number of years after their residencies (which they'll also do here). Some people pick those schools specifically because they want to do public health and don't necessarily want/need to take on the debt of a major medical school. The vast majority of the people in Caribbean medical schools WANT to be in places like Rwanda or the South Bronx.

It's kind of like Kevin's situation--he knew he'd have a job right out, so he needed the JD--not the name on the JD. The problem lies in the people who think they'll have all of same opportunities as those who went to a more prestigious school.

^^^^I didn't know that. Thanks.

I think people generally fail to do their homework on the fields they're entering to know whether the caliber of school they're attending matters in the field. There are some fields where the school you go to is going to determine a lot for you in terms of where you're going to work.

Ex: Law is a field where it matters. Your expectations need to match the reality. Ex: You can't go to UAkron for law school and expect to work at a Top 100 firm.

Or Architecture. You're not going to be doing restorations on historical landmarks in DC with a Regional State University degree.

Not to pick on regionals because I attend one, but I know that my field isn't a "school matters" type (as most human services/education type fields aren't.)

[Low C Sharp]

I'm not sure there are any folks attending T3/T4 schools and expecting to get jobs at Top 100 firms. They'd have to be pretty delusional.

There are TONS of these folks. They are totally delusional. They don't even do enough research to know about "top 100" firms or anything like that...they just know that lawyers make lots of money, so they go for it.

[DrPhil]

A lot of law students are 20-something year olds whose mindsets are still at the level of undergraduate students. In a similar fashion as undergraduate students, they are looking for quick answers to the questions "where will this degree take me" and "how much will I be making."

And some law schools are marketing themselves as answers to those questions.

These students are also getting a skewed perception from friends, family, and some of their social networks (nonInternet).

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

These students are also getting a skewed perception from friends, family, and some of their social networks (nonInternet).

I think this is one of the biggest issues with the people who get frustrated when their low-level school fails to get them "that big money." Many have heard their whole lives that education is this great equalizer and that once you have a degree--any degree--you're set and all your financial problems are gone forever and ever.

What people fail to realize, however, is that education is only one piece of the puzzle. Where you went, how you did, and who you meet along your way to said degree makes a lot of difference as well. These are often the same people who get sucked in by online schools and get the idea that if you go to law school--any law school, you'll be living large like Claire Huxtable.

How do we explain the appeal of a place like Cooley?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I think this is one of the biggest issues with the people who get frustrated when their low-level school fails to get them "that big money." Many have heard their whole lives that education is this great equalizer and that once you have a degree--any degree--you're set and all your financial problems are gone forever and ever.

What people fail to realize, however, is that education is only one piece of the puzzle. Where you went, how you did, and who you meet along your way to said degree makes a lot of difference as well. These are often the same people who get sucked in by online schools and get the idea that if you go to law school--any law school, you'll be living large like Claire Huxtable.

How do we explain the appeal of a place like Cooley?

I agree but this is not about school tiers. There are just enough accomplished professionals who graduated from "low-level" schools and that unfortunately includes for-profit online schools. All it takes is a couple of well-established and esteemed alumnae/i to be featured in the school's Career Center or Alumnae/i Magazine and prospective students and current students believe that they too can be among the accomplished. Afterall, there are people who attend "lower-level" schools who attained the skills and networks to excel. They often had to work harder to get people to take them seriously but they tend not to tell that part of the story--unless they grow a disdain for their degree program.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

What people fail to realize, however, is that education is only one piece of the puzzle. Where you went, how you did, and who you meet along your way to said degree makes a lot of difference as well.

A J.D. is pretty unique though in that you can take it and if you can find the right clients and work the cases right, you can make big money fast even if you're a solo from a T4 school.

Lawyers are uniquely able to be very successful in a self-employed capacity as many state bars make clients essentially the separate property of individual attorneys. If they leave the firm, their clients go with them. Also, law firms are not allowed to be owned by non-lawyers.

Even grads from Cooley can do very well for themselves.

But damn.. Cooley takes profiteering to a new low.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by Kevin

A J.D. is pretty unique though in that you can take it and if you can find the right clients and work the cases right, you can make big money fast even if you're a solo from a T4 school.

Lawyers are uniquely able to be very successful in a self-employed capacity as many state bars make clients essentially the separate property of individual attorneys. If they leave the firm, their clients go with them. Also, law firms are not allowed to be owned by non-lawyers.

Even grads from Cooley can do very well for themselves.

But damn.. Cooley takes profiteering to a new low.

It use to be that veterinary hospitals could only be owned by vets and in some states this still holds true. But, corporations are taking over and with their deep pockets are able to somehow bypass this rule (think Banfield-the bane of most private practioner's existence). Students are graduating with so much debt now, many private practioners are in fear of not being able to sell to anyone but a corporation-it really is a sad state of affairs. I am glad I am close to getting out of the profession full time.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Lawyers are uniquely able to be very successful in a self-employed capacity as many state bars make clients essentially the separate property of individual attorneys. If they leave the firm, their clients go with them. Also, law firms are not allowed to be owned by non-lawyers.

Even grads from Cooley can do very well for themselves.

But damn.. Cooley takes profiteering to a new low.

I wish architecture and engineering were like that. If I leave, I lose my clients automatically. Typically, if a senior architect or engineer leaves, the clients will stay unless the firm is just piss-poor or if the client is only there because of said engineer or architect.

I don't doubt that Cooley grads can do well for themselves. I live behind a courthouse, and I definitely see a few Cooley tags on cars--one is definitely a judge. I think a place like Cooley might work for someone with a lot of initiative and realistic expectations.

[DrPhil]

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/le...cal_order.html

This list includes a few for-profit law schools. Kaplan is not among them.

[AGDee]

There are things that people with a law degree can do outside of practicing as a lawyer too. We've been hiring primarily people with law backgrounds in the HIPAA Privacy area and most Privacy Officers I've met during my audits of our vendors have law degrees. The last one was even from Columbia.

Before my ex was laid off, he noted that a lot of jobs that used to go to MBAs were going to people with law degrees instead.

Hypo is considering a law degree eventually but her end goal would have more to do with working in environmental law or politics in some way because she's such a little activist! One of the young women she met at Barnard's Young Women's Leadership Institute was the daughter of a woman who is an ACLU attorney. She was very excited about that!

[DrPhil]

I know people with a J.D. who never intended to practice law and they have stood firmly behind that.

[AGDee]

Oh, and our Governance and Compliance folks usually come from a law background. One of my professors had a law degree and a Master's in IT Security.