Questions about GPA Requirements and PNMs

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I'm totally with you. The problem comes when people think they can make a system designed to fit a region work in a place it isn't used or think they can make a system suddenly stop using them. They have their place. Since Towson was the bone of contention in this thread, I'll explain the difficulties trying to suddenly require women to come up with recs when they have no idea what they are. Most women who go through recruitment in the south are locals to their respective schools. At Towson, MD, a large proportion are from Long Island and other New York locations. It is cheaper to go to school at Towson. Since these recs are for OUR benefit, getting these women to get recommendations is not realistic when they have never done them before. Our alumnae in MD have no idea what recommendations are (I personally had to do any recs for students heading down to Bama and Ole Miss requesting recs from our alum chapter when I lived there.) We do have an alumnae chapter in Long Island, but considering that New York schools don't require recs either, the likelihood is that those women are not likely to go out of their way to take time from their busy schedules to hunt down the GPAs for women attending college in a different state. And...they couldn't get those GPAs without permission of the women going through recruitment anyway so the whole point is moot. Recs are a mostly southern thing. I am from the south and from a chapter from the south that used recs so I'm fully aware of them. You just can't shove a square peg in a round hole.

That makes sense. I guess NPC cannot make a mandate that would span across regions and schools. The whole recruitment system is interesting to me because it is one of the explanations for why NPCers across sororities have so many back and forths and share opinions.

At the same time, aspirants/PNMs who really want something will take the necessary steps to make it happen regardless of the region and so forth. NPHC GLOs that require letters of recommendation typically do not remove that requirement for any demographic. It does not matter whether you are a legacy or first generation college student. It does not matter whether all of your high school teachers or people in your church are NPHCers; or whether you do not recall ever meeting an NPHCer before you came to college. You can be from a city with collegiate chapters and alumnae/alumni/graduate chapters or you can be from a city where chapters are more scarce or most chapters have their charter revoked. Regardless of whatever, no exceptions. You better have the basic requirements and it is up to individual chapters and/or schools to assign additional requirements. Despite the fact that many NPHC aspirants have been aspiring and planning prior to their first year in college, the average racial and ethnic minority is a first generation college student who may or may not have any NPHC background info and networks. There are also financial/active NPHCers who have never done a letter of recommendation for an aspirant or who have not kept up to date on their GLO's requirements. Either way, it must all be figured out if aspirants want to be in the NPHC GLOs that have letters of recommendation as a basic requirement.

(The letter of rec contention makes more sense now that I have typed that. The mutual selection contention still doesn't make sense. LOL. Ignore me, though.)


/lane swerve

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

(The letter of rec contention makes more sense now that I have typed that. The mutual selection contention still doesn't make sense. LOL. Ignore me, though.)


/lane swerve

NPHC is actually doing "mutual selection" just in a different way. Your org is sitting there, needing aspirants. So, the aspirant (PNM) does his/her due diligence and follows your intake process. He/she has selected XXX as GLO of choice. Then, XXX decides if they want the aspirant (you select). So you both have selected and that is mutual selection. I don't know why everyone gets so wound up about the term. If a PNM or aspirant could choose any group and be assured of membership, it wouldn't be mutual! And if the GLO could pick any PNM/aspirant and demand they join, that wouldn't be mutual either. Somewhere along the line people have placed a different meaning on "mutual selection" than was intended.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I don't know why everyone gets so wound up about the term. If a PNM or aspirant could choose any group and be assured of membership, it wouldn't be mutual! And if the GLO could pick any PNM/aspirant and demand they join, that wouldn't be mutual either. Somewhere along the line people have placed a different meaning on "mutual selection" than was intended.

The bolded is what I do not understand. Why is this idea a point of contention for some NPCers?

GLOs do not force aspirants/PNMs to be interested in us, aspirants/PNMs do not force us to choose them, and GLOs do not force aspirants/PNMs to decide to join if they are chosen. Even if there is sometimes an implication of snootyness and rejectment, is that not okay considering that GLOs are among the organizations in the world with selection processes and no aspirant sense of entitlement?

/lane swerve

[Titchou]

From 33Girl, KSUViolet and others who don't believe it is a "mutual selection" process....

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Titchou

From 33Girl, KSUViolet and others who don't believe it is a "mutual selection" process....

Whoooa, what??? You misunderstood me - or else I misunderstood you. You seemed to be saying that is IS skewed in favor of the sororities.

Originally Posted by Titchou

It is mutual - but we're the ones having the parties...so we get to say who's invited.

And believe me, by NO means do I consider that a bad thing. Alpha Chapter and Beta Chapter of XYZ may be miles apart in what they consider an "ideal sister" and how the interpret the membership standards laid out for them, but there is no question whatsoever it is THEIR decision.

[Titchou]

I do beg to differ on one point - at least at Alabama, over 50% of the PNMs are from out of state. So they aren't "local"...and that's the case at Ole Miss, etc. It's just that since recs are the norm there, the school's PH web site tells them that they need them. And we don't go "hunting down GPAs". That's on the girl's resume...and transcript - both of which any rec writer should ask for. I know it's a foreign concept to some folks but most people are used to references for jobs and it's really the same exact thing. And there are some GLO's whose national policy is that all new members have a rec. Now, how you go about getting it is another story. Some folks just sit around a table and fill them out after the fact. But they do send them in!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I do beg to differ on one point - at least at Alabama, over 50% of the PNMs are from out of state. So they aren't "local"...and that's the case at Ole Miss, etc. It's just that since recs are the norm there, the school's PH web site tells them that they need them. And we don't go "hunting down GPAs". That's on the girl's resume...and transcript - both of which any rec writer should ask for. I know it's a foreign concept to some folks but most people are used to references for jobs and it's really the same exact thing. And there are some GLO's whose national policy is that all new members have a rec. Now, how you go about getting it is another story. Some folks just sit around a table and fill them out after the fact. But they do send them in!

Alabama only recently began having 50% of it's PNMs come from out of state. They also dont have 100% rec rates, and I'd bet the highest percentage of women without recs come from that group. Secondly, as you pointed out the GPA is on the girls transcripts that are sent in. I've been talking about TOWSON. I know all about how recs work. I've written several and think they are just fine in their environment. At TOWSON, where you suggested recs would fix the issue of not knowing the PNMs GPAs, we wouldn't have access to the PNMs transcripts BECAUSE they wouldn't be sending them in. You are suddenly going to be able to get 300 girls to work to get recs for 9 groups when they've never had to before AND NPC says you can't tell them it's a requirement? PNMs send their transcripts in for recs in the south because it is part of the process. It has been since the beginning of the sorority movement. In the north, it isn't the case.

[AnchorAlumna]

Our little local alumnae panhellenic never used to ask for transcripts, and we also never used to ask for the parents' employers. Every sorority had somebody who was a high school teacher in one of the two high schools and could check for grades, and the city directory at the library would tell you where daddies worked.

Then some of the sororities started wanting transcripts, and city directories disappeared.

So, we started putting on our requested info sheets a line for mommy and daddy's employers and a line requesting a transcript.

And our PNMs have eagerly complied! It kinda amazes me what people will do when you ask.

AOPiAngel, I hear ya about the difficulty in getting PNMs to request recs and for alumnae from certain areas to even know what they are when asked. I once worked with a chapter at a Southern school whose students mostly came from the mid-Atlantic and Northern states. They boggled at the idea of PNMs needing to have a recommendation before being invited to pref, and their solution was just to sign one themselves. We worked with them and they began getting the idea when I left office.

Even at Alabama, there are some PNMs for whom we simply cannot find a rec. Sometimes you just have to make the best judgment you can and if you really like her, use one of those back-door ways of getting a rec. But it does make me a little uncomfortable to not have at least an idea of what we're getting into.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

Our little local alumnae panhellenic never used to ask for transcripts, and we also never used to ask for the parents' employers. Every sorority had somebody who was a high school teacher in one of the two high schools and could check for grades, and the city directory at the library would tell you where daddies worked.

Then some of the sororities started wanting transcripts, and city directories disappeared.

So, we started putting on our requested info sheets a line for mommy and daddy's employers and a line requesting a transcript.

And our PNMs have eagerly complied! It kinda amazes me what people will do when you ask.

AOPiAngel, I hear ya about the difficulty in getting PNMs to request recs and for alumnae from certain areas to even know what they are when asked. I once worked with a chapter at a Southern school whose students mostly came from the mid-Atlantic and Northern states. They boggled at the idea of PNMs needing to have a recommendation before being invited to pref, and their solution was just to sign one themselves. We worked with them and they began getting the idea when I left office.

Even at Alabama, there are some PNMs for whom we simply cannot find a rec. Sometimes you just have to make the best judgment you can and if you really like her, use one of those back-door ways of getting a rec. But it does make me a little uncomfortable to not have at least an idea of what we're getting into.

A line for parent employment in 2012?

Wow.

[justgo_withit]

I think the problem is that often PNMs get the impression that mutual selection = equal selection, and that it means that their opinions directly impact where they end up in terms of "If I really like group XYZ and I think I belong there, I will end up there". Because "we can't make you join a group, you get to choose if you pledge there or not" seems like such common sense, they assume that mutual selection means their feelings will lead the selection for daily parties, when actually the chapters' does like Titchou said.

The concept that "mutual selection" stands for seems so obvious that PNMs/less than stellar people advising them have put a different meaning on it that isn't actually real. PNMs hear "it's a mutual selection process" and interpret it as "you can get into that top tier chapter that is way out of your league if you want it bad enough because your opinion matters and you're desperate for good news".

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

I think the problem is that often PNMs get the impression that mutual selection means that their opinions directly impact where they end up in terms of "If I really like group XYZ and I think I belong there, I will end up there," and then they're upset when they don't get invited back. Because "we can't make you join a group, you get to choose if you pledge there or not" seems like such common sense, they assume that mutual selection means their feelings will lead the selection for daily parties, when actually the chapters' does like Titchou said.

The concept that "mutual selection" stands for seems so obvious that PNMs/less than stellar people advising them have put a different meaning on it that isn't actually real. PNMs hear "it's a mutual selection process" and interpret it as "you can get into that top tier chapter that is way out of your league if you want it bad enough because your opinion matters and you're desperate for good news".

Oh I think I get it. PNMs are led to believe that it can matter that they want "us" as much as, or more than, "we" want them. Therefore, they think that their passion and awesomeness will be met with acceptance.

In that case, it sounds like the very common NPHC bitter aspirant or eternal aspirant. However, the feelings of those aspirants do not matter regardless of who gave them misinformation. Regardless of how hard they have tried, we do not have to accept them. It is not uncommon for rejectment aspirants to contact the school, district/local/regional/national entity to force themselves upon the chapter; or to get the chapter in trouble, in general. That sometimes works but they will ALWAYS be the rejectment who had to force herself/himself on the chapter and the GLO.

Not every GLO member made it on their first try for whatever reason(s). That can be disappointing and some people feel rejectment. However, the different interpretations of "mutual selection" does not mean that there is no mutual selection. At the end of this mutual selection, the decisions of the GLO still matter more (even if some aspirants/PNMs choose to decline an invitation for membership).

/pardon lane swerves

[Old_Row]

The problem is we give the PNMs the impression that they are somehow in control of the process and very few of them are. Only the really top PNMs (maybe 10 to 15%) are going to have their choice. The top chapters will get who they want (within reason since those chapters are usually after the same PNMs.) The remaining chapters and PNMs have fewer options. How many times do PNMs come here to complain that the chapters they are "cutting" keep asking them back?

While the out of state population at Bama has grown, almost everyone comes from "like minded" areas of the south as far as sororities are concerned.

[Titchou]

Well, we should not be giving them that impression, Old Row. The impression is the problem - not the reality. You know, i went thru in 1963 - back when dinosaurs roamed the earth - but I never thought it was all about my choice. I knew I had to be qualified to get an invite and then I had to choose carefully which ones I accepted (that was how it was done before RFM). No one ever gave me the idea I was in total control. And yes, I'm from the South but no woman in my family had ever been Greek, I went to HS out state to a boarding school where none of my classmates knew what a sorority was. The problem today is the heli parents - they should be explaining life and rejection, etc to their children and they are not. Dr Phil - I'm right there with, baby!

[DGTess]

It's not "mutual" as long as a woman cannot drop a chapter during the process.

I'm not arguing for that -- way too often the one she dropped would have been the best fit for her. Still, choices have consequences.

So Rachel Rushee goes to 16 houses on day one, and gets invited back to 8. But two of those who invited her back were those she didn't want to return to, and under many (most?) Panhel rules she gives up all choice - dropped from rush - if she doesn't go back to those she didn't want.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DGTess

It's not "mutual" as long as a woman cannot drop a chapter during the process.

I'm not arguing for that -- way too often the one she dropped would have been the best fit for her. Still, choices have consequences.

So Rachel Rushee goes to 16 houses on day one, and gets invited back to 8. But two of those who invited her back were those she didn't want to return to, and under many (most?) Panhel rules she gives up all choice - dropped from rush - if she doesn't go back to those she didn't want.

Right, but if a chapter ends up with none of the women they wanted, it's not mutual for them, either.