Not Religious and Interested in Fraternity Recruitment

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think, at their core, fraternity and sorority values are more alike than different, regardless of how they were expressed in words 150+ years ago.

The thing is we're all speculating about how religious (or non-religious) the rituals of other orgs may or may not be. All we have to go on are our own rituals and the public statements that some GLOs make (such as making clear that belief in a Supreme Being, however one understands that, is required, or a notice to PNMs that "our rituals will in no way cause you discomfort with regard to your own beliefs"). While I do not doubt that for members of many orgs, the religious expressions in a ritual are easily seen in a historical context rather than a religious one, I would not assume that holds true for all orgs. I think it is possible that some orgs do still consider them as having real religious context. What I have read in public statements from one or two fraternities suggests that they do, at least nationally. What the view is at the chapter level, again, may be a different story.

That's why I think that all the OP can do is read up to know what specific fraternities say publicly on the subject and meet and talk to the members of chapters on his campus to gauge their attitudes.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Honestly, I think you are limiting yourself unnecessarily if you won't even consider a fraternity because of what might happen to be in its ritual. Some of us choose to view ritual as a historical connection to our founders, that reflects the time in which it was written, and not modern-day realities. Putting my hand on a bible means nothing, because the bible means nothing to me. Believe me, nobody in my initiating chapter cared.

When you go through rush, I think it will be obvious if a fraternity's brothers are especially Christian (or Jewish, I suppose), and you would truly be a bad fit. But for the most part, lot of people (everyone?) question their faith in their college years, and you are not betraying your brothers to go through the motions of ritual without meaning some parts.

I agree. I see motions such as saying, "So help me God", or "Under God", or putting the hand upon a bible as a cultural formality NOT as an affirmation of belief in a god. I also suspect that maybe OP isn't exactly 100% comfortable with his own belief system yet hence the extreme concern over this issue.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I can think of at least 2, and possibly three fraternities that require a belief in a Supreme Being.

[amIblue?]

As a lifelong southerner, I think that what DeltaBetaBaby said makes sense. Meet the men, and he'll get a sense for how important it is for that group. Some may care; others certainly won't.

[Lilgiant2016]

Thank you all for yor replies. I will try to answer some of the specifics. Regarding the Pledge of Allegiance, I just say it the way it was written without the words Under God. I just don't feel it is necessary, and I can always say that it is the way my grandparents recited it and I am a traditionalist.

Thank you for the links. I had read a couple of those, which is why I was nervous about bringing up the subject. My mom, who is Greek told me that for those that want me, it won't generally matter, but she is also the one that encouraged me to get a feel for the values of the organizations while keeping an open mind. She suggested I post here, with the warining that I need to be respectful or I would get schooled.
She also said I should thank you all with a recruitment story next fall, but I think I would be way too easy to identify. The school is very small and very greek.

I have decided to ask a senior at one fraternity about his experiences and to maybe ask some of the guys I have met from a few of the schools about if they would see a problem with pledging. I just need to make it sound casual and not pushy or needy. I have a few favorites already at the school, but it has been drilled into my head to keep an open mind.

Thanks again. I will keep checking in.

[KDCat]

You might want to check out the webpage for the national organization of the chapters you are interested in. I know that KD's webpage has a very clear nondiscrimination statement.

If you can't find it on the web page, a polite email to the national organization might give you the information you need.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KDCat

You might want to check out the webpage for the national organization of the chapters you are interested in. I know that KD's webpage has a very clear nondiscrimination statement.

If you can't find it on the web page, a polite email to the national organization might give you the information you need.

I don't think he's worried about a group not bidding him because of his views, rather, he doesn't want to receive a bid and then go to a pledging ceremony where he has to profess his belief in Christ. There might be other brothers who took the oath without really weighing what it means, but he doesn't roll that way.

DBB - that's a favorite phrase of many of our big bugs (har) and I've heard other groups say it too.

[DubaiSis]

I would think that if a statement of faith is required, it would be required in order to PLEDGE, not to initiate. I mean, it would be something they would tell you is required before even putting you into their system. Getting you half way through the initiation process, only to have you say whoah, back up, would be a HUGE problem. At least in my experience, there's a whole bunch of stuff in my sorority's initiation that we wouldn't want anyone to know before we get to the actual ritual. I mean, the hover crafts happen WAY before the ritual.

[tallgreekalum]

sent you a pm

[DubaiSis]

I wouldn't say that. If you are a non-believer, whether Atheist or Agnostic, you (I) begin to really feel like religion is constantly being crammed down your throat. I do notice all the God comments on everything, and Christian statements of faith in particular. Some of it I just have to tolerate (and this is how I feel about the religion'y parts of sorority life I've experienced) and some (under God in the PoA) are personally offensive. When I was going through rush I hadn't fully developed my belief system so it didn't bother me, but I can tell you if one of the nonsectarian sororities were available to me back then, it probably would have been quite appealing. I choose to consider the religious aspects more a testament to the times and not as much about what the founders would expect of their members 100+ years later. And I don't think that's hair-splitting, since sororities that actively wouldn't accept Catholics or Jews back then think nothing of it now.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I wouldn't say that. If you are a non-believer, whether Atheist or Agnostic, you (I) begin to really feel like religion is constantly being crammed down your throat. I do notice all the God comments on everything, and Christian statements of faith in particular. Some of it I just have to tolerate (and this is how I feel about the religion'y parts of sorority life I've experienced) and some (under God in the PoA) are personally offensive. When I was going through rush I hadn't fully developed my belief system so it didn't bother me, but I can tell you if one of the nonsectarian sororities were available to me back then, it probably would have been quite appealing. I choose to consider the religious aspects more a testament to the times and not as much about what the founders would expect of their members 100+ years later. And I don't think that's hair-splitting, since sororities that actively wouldn't accept Catholics or Jews back then think nothing of it now.

I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.

[Tulip86]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.

I don't think the problem is seeing a religious creed or motto, a church, a pride flag or anything of that nature, but having to personally repeat it (like in the PoA) or having to state something of religious nature in ritual.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't see it like that at all. Does seeing a pride flag on a car or street corner make you feel like homosexuality is being crammed down your throat? If not, then why do you feel that way about religion, especially if they (the messages) aren't proselytizing. You singled out Christianity but you live in Dubai and IIRC youve posted before that there were times when you weren't allowed to eat in public during the day or do other things because of Islamic laws or traditions. I would think having to live by certain rules established by a religion would be far worse than seeing a religious creed or motto every now or then.

She's talking about fraternity/sorority things and how prevalent the mentions of God are, not her day to day life.

And to go on a tangent, I didn't realize until after my mom died how if you get a gift in late April/May clerks always ask "Is this for your mom?", the constant marketing of the holiday, etc etc etc. You can't escape it for a period of about two months and let me tell you it really effing sucks, especially on the first go-round. I'm not saying get rid of it, just that sometimes people are inconsiderate and have no clue that they are being so. This all to say, I don't think many of our founders were being inconsiderate or discriminatory when they wrote very Christian-centered or God-centered rituals. It simply did not cross their mind that anyone lived life any differently.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This all to say, I don't think many of our founders were being inconsiderate or discriminatory when they wrote very Christian-centered or God-centered rituals. It simply did not cross their mind that anyone lived life any differently.

This is what I was trying to say upthread. I think it's important to live our VALUES, but I also don't think that means we have to live them in the very literal way in which they were put down on page.

If some groups still actually require statements of belief, that's one thing, but to compare two rituals side-by-side and count the number of times "God" appears in each one would be futile in determining which group is more religious.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

This is what I was trying to say upthread. I think it's important to live our VALUES, but I also don't think that means we have to live them in the very literal way in which they were put down on page.

If some groups still actually require statements of belief, that's one thing, but to compare two rituals side-by-side and count the number of times "God" appears in each one would be futile in determining which group is more religious.

Absolutely. And once you hit phrasing in the ritual like "Our common god", trying to figure out whether that requires theism, theism + agnosticism or nothing at all gets even trickier.

And conversely, for the Masons, Great Architect of the Universe would be used rather than God.