The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

No from the articles I read it looked like he was taking a shortcut through the gated community, never that he lived in there. I admitted that I was wrong.

Calm down. I wasn't attacking you.

I'm just curious what articles you're reading that haven't mentioned it. Even the places that are branding TM as a thug acknowledge that "he was only yards away from home"

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Calm down. I wasn't attacking you.

I'm just curious what articles you're reading that haven't mentioned it. Even the places that are branding TM as a thug acknowledge that "he was only yards away from home"

Hey, she knew she was gonna get flamed....remember?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

No it's the point where I say that I could care less what color or status or class someone is. If you look suspicious, I will be suspicious.

The problem with this and its relevance to Zimmerman is that you're talking about your perspective and your reaction. It doesn't matter to you whether the person who looks suspicious is black or white or other, and race doesn't enter into your calculation of whether someone looks suspicious or not. Ditto status or class.

But the fact that these things wouldn't matter to you is irrelevant to the question of whether they mattered to Zimmerman. They might not have mattered to him or they might have -- we'll just have to wait and see. I don't know and I don't want to speculate one way or the other.

But in a hate crimes analysis, what will be determinative is not whether a reasonable person could have found Trayvon Martin's actions/presence to be suspicious without any reference to his race, but (as DrPhil said) whether Zimmerman targeted him on the basis of his race.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

If somehow this does get picked up by the feds as this being a hate crime, I wonder what else besides the recording and the supposed story about his warning others neighbors about black people they would have to go on.

Was he warning other neighbors about Black people or warning other neighbors about strangers to the neighborhood, most or all of whom were Black? There is a difference so the question will be whether Zimmerman's alleged intent (which cannot be proven without documentation or mind reading) matters or the obvious outcome.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Well, either way, I won't worry about that right now. I am just glad that step one has been done, he has been arrested and hopefully this will be done by this time next year.

True.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The problem with this and its relevance to Zimmerman is that you're talking about your perspective and your reaction. It doesn't matter to you whether the person who looks suspicious is black or white or other, and race doesn't enter into your calculation of whether someone looks suspicious or not. Ditto status or class.

But the fact that these things wouldn't matter to you is irrelevant to the question of whether they mattered to Zimmerman. They might not have mattered to him or they might have -- we'll just have to wait and see. I don't know and I don't want to speculate one way or the other.

But in a hate crimes analysis, what will be determinative is not whether a reasonable person could have found Trayvon Martin's actions/presence to be suspicious without any reference to his race, but (as DrPhil said) whether Zimmerman targeted him on the basis of his race.

And most people when on the record will say "race, social class, and status" do not matter just as people say the ridiculous "it doesn't matter whether you're Black, white, Asian, orange, purple, green" as though creating a orange, purple, and green people is a necessary overstatement to prove a point. Typically, when people overstate something they are trying too hard to not only convince others but to convince themselves. "Would I be as suspicious if this hooded sweatshirt guy looked like a white neighbor who goes jogging? I'm perplexed...F--- my life!!!"

That may or may not apply to PM_Mama00. She would say it doesn't apply to her either way and her word is bond in this context.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Was he warning other neighbors about Black people or warning other neighbors about strangers to the neighborhood, most or all of whom were Black? There is a difference so the question will be whether Zimmerman's alleged intent (which cannot be proven without documentation or mind reading) matters or the obvious outcome.

That is what I want to hear about. Allegedly, he was warning others about Black people in the area so until the prosecution shows it and slam dunks it, it's still up in the air.

What I really want to hear was what made him follow him in the first place. Why did he feel this particular time to do so and if he has done so before when calling 911? part of me wants to say that he was the overzealous watch guy but a bigger part of me says otherwise...again, I will be patient on this.


As an aside, with some of the other shootings that have recently happens like the Rekia Boyd shooting in Chicago and the Kendric MdDade shooting in Cali as well as a few others that have been reported, happening around the same time, I wonder how much energy and effort is being put forth to make sure the truth comes out since they all happened around the same time as this one.

[DaemonSeid]

UPDATE: 1:40 p.m. ET: Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman appeared in a Florida courtroom shortly after 1:30 p.m. He entered the courtroom in handcuffs. Flanked by a police officer and his lawyer, Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman acknowledged the second-degree murder charge against him. O'Mara said a not guilty plea was entered.

The judge agreed there was probable cause to proceed, and set for a formal arraignment on May 29, at 1:30 p.m. ET.

Zimmerman is being held in protective custody without bail in Seminole County Jail, but asked for the case file to be sealed. The prosecutors agreed to the request.

O'Mara did not ask the judge to set a bond.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...143832017.html

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

That is what I want to hear about. Allegedly, he was warning others about Black people in the area so until the prosecution shows it and slam dunks it, it's still up in the air.

Where did you read or hear that he was warning "about Black people" in the area?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Where did you read or hear that he was warning "about Black people" in the area?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/...today-watchman


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ce-crime-watch



http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...rash-black-men


Google Zimmerman Warned Black and you an find more links that allege similar calls made.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

http://articles.businessinsider.com/...today-watchman


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ce-crime-watch



http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...rash-black-men

I know about all of that. There is still no evidence of what you said, which is that he was (calling 911 and) warning neighbors "about Black people."

There is evidence that he was calling about people who he considered suspicious all or most of whom were Black.

Do you see the difference? That difference is important based on my previous post.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Google Zimmerman Warned Black and you an find more links that allege similar calls made.

No need for that. Zimmerman may have been targeting Black people specifically OR all of the unfamiliar people he saw happened to be Black based on the neighborhood context. As for the child he called 911 about, Zimmerman claimed he feared for the child's safety or something to that effect.

These loopholes in arguments are some of the things Zimmerman's legal team will tear apart.

[DaemonSeid]

that is why I said 'allege'.

Both times.

You did see that, right?

Again, it has to be proven.

Again as I said earlier...it is up in the air.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

that is why I said 'allege'.

Both times.

You did see that, right?

Again, it has to be proven.

Again as I said earlier...it is up in the air.

The discussion that you and I are having is about whether the allegations should even be allegations. Our discussion is also about miswordings and misrepresentations.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The discussion that you and I are having is about whether the allegations should even be allegations. Our discussion is also about miswordings and misrepresentations.

If that's the case then we are done.

Wait and see when the trial comes about because regardless of how we circle around it, you nor I have definitive proof nor evidence, if we did, we would be in Florida right now. And for even the speculations we are debating right now, it may not even come up in court.

In other news, there is speculation that the shooting does open the HOA up for a lawsuit.

You have a nice night.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...n-martin-suit/

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by agzg

Is this the point where you try to convince us you're not racist because you know black people or something?

Why is he asking that the case be sealed? I'm not entirely sure what that means but it sounds similar to when cases against minors are sealed after they're adults. Is that the same and if so, why would that apply here? Someone break it down for me, you know I lag on legal threads.

[SOM]

For those interested in this case, may I suggest following Lionel. Besides being a Brother in a GLO, he is also an attorney and former DA in FL. Has some rather great and insightful commentary on it.
For example, this may never, ever (under FL laws) even get to a full blown trial.
http://www.podjockey.com/lionelmedia...wait-immunity/

He is on both Facebook and twitter.

[SOM]

And on another note: There maybe reason(s) to wonder why Mr. Zimmerman was still even permitted to carry the gun that he used to kill Mr. Martin.
Mr. Zimmerman carried a loaded firearm on his person as he was “acting” as a neighborhood watch “Captain“. That is in direct violation of ALL neighborhood watch rules and regulations. Had Mr. Zimmerman obeyed the neighborhood watch rules and regulations, Mr. Martin would be alive today.

Mr. Zimmerman had a permit to carry a firearm. Mr. Zimmerman should never have been allowed to have a permit to carry based on Florida law for domestic abuse restraining orders:
DISQUALIFYING CRIMES: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
• If you have been convicted of a domestic crime of violence, you will be deemed ineligible unless you can
show proof of one of the following three conditions:
a) that you have received relief from federal firearms disabilities;
b) that you have received a presidential pardon; or,
c) that a court has sealed or expunged the record.
• If you have had adjudication of guilt withheld or imposition of sentence suspended on any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, you will be INELIGIBLE for licensure UNLESS THREE YEARS HAVE ELAPSED SINCE PROBATION OR ANY OTHER COURT-IMPOSED CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED (or the record has been sealed or expunged).
This is the one that pertains to Mr. Zimmerman:
If you have been issued an injunction that is currently in force that restrains you from committing acts of
domestic violence or acts of repeat violence, you will be disqualified from eligibility until that injunction is
no longer in force.
Mr. Zimmerman had a charge of domestic violence and his ex-fiance took out a restraining order against him.
Had this rule of law been adhered to as it would have been for me or you, Mr. Martin would still be alive today.
http://theobamacrat.com/2012/04/11/t...rge-zimmerman/