The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[Kevin]

It'll be interesting to see how much evidence the state has that we haven't seen. I certainly haven't seen enough to convince me the state can overcome its burden, but I'm assuming they've played their hand in the media. We'll see I guess.

I doubt she would have charged murder rather than manslaughter unless she had something else up her sleeve.

[DrPhil]

This is now going beyond the court of public opinion.

The criminal justice and legal realms are not confined to what the media and people on FB are saying.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is now going beyond the court of public opinion.

The criminal justice and legal realms are not confined to what the media and people on FB are saying.

We all know that a good percentage of the population (outside of GC) either does not know this or does not care. What is obvious to some will need to be made very plain to them.

Did I read correctly that there will be no jury? I saw it when browsing Yahoo! News so I apologize for not being able to give a source.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

We all know that a good percentage of the population (outside of GC) either does not know this or does not care. What is obvious to some will need to be made very plain to them.

Did I read correctly that there will be no jury? I saw it when browsing Yahoo! News so I apologize for not being able to give a source.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...220301336.html

No, the special prosecutor says there will be no GRAND jury. That means they will not be seeking an indictment through the normal route. To our GC lawyers, I wasn't aware you could skip the grand jury. How is this possible?

[AXOmom]

Not a lawyer, so I'll defer to more knowledgeable opinions, but one of the articles linked (or maybe it was one I read on the case) mentioned that in Florida the prosecutor is not required to call a grand jury unless the charge is 1st degree murder.

ETA: I just looked back a page, and I think SWTXBelle mentioned this from an article she linked.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...220301336.html

No, the special prosecutor says there will be no GRAND jury. That means they will not be seeking an indictment through the normal route. To our GC lawyers, I wasn't aware you could skip the grand jury. How is this possible?

If I remember right, Feds always have to have a Grand Jury because of the Fifth Amendment, but every state can have their own situations regarding Grand Juries due to their own rules of criminal procedure.

Originally Posted by AXOmom

Not a lawyer, so I'll defer to more knowledgeable opinions, but one of the articles linked (or maybe it was one I read on the case) mentioned that in Florida the prosecutor is not required to call a grand jury unless the charge is 1st degree murder.

That's how I read it; Zimmerman is charged with 2nd degree murder so there isn't a Grand Jury requirement.

As an aside, Pam Bondi the Florida Attorney General, definitely doesn't look like she will be 47 this year. She's a fair complected Florida native, how has she managed to avoid sun damage? She's a University of Florida Delta Delta Delta alumna, so perhaps she regularly swims with initiation dolphins and the water has magical preservation and healing powers?
http://myfloridalegal.com/

ETA: Zimmerman's new attorney is Mark M. O'Mara, who has been a "legal analyst" for a local television channel, and he's a member of S.A.E. (I'm assuming from University of Central Florida). http://www.markomaralaw.com/Attorney...M-O-mara.shtml It looks like it is him and one associate who was admitted to the bar in 2011. Zimmerman's previous attorneys were also kind of interesting. Hal Uhrig used to be a cop and is part of a practice with five attorneys, whereas Craig Sonner looks to be in solo practice and has Esq. after his name on his webpage (lulz to Bill S. Preston). This has the potential to get farcical, real quick.

[PM_Mama00]

In his mugshot, I have to admit it doesn't look like his nose was broken, but then again I'm not an expert.

I still do not think this was a racial incident. My neighborhood is a no outlet, newer construction subdivision with pretty expensive homes. It's small enough to know which kids live where. One night around 1:30am in the morning I saw 5 teens walking down my street with black hoods up. I didn't recognize any of them so I knew they were up to something, especially when one saw me looking out my window and they all stopped. They were all white. I didn't give a shit WHAT color they were, I called the cops and while I was on the phone with them, I heard some kind of gun- paintball or BB (they shot at a house 2 houses down). They didn't arrest them so I don't know what they were doing. Point of the story, if you're walking through a neighborhood you shouldn't be in (like a gated one), with a hood up at night, you ARE going to look suspicious. Zimmerman disobeying orders to stop following and then fatally shooting the kid is what he needs to be convicted of, not a racially motivated crime.

I know I'll get flamed for this but oh well. There are real hate crimes going on out there that Americans should focus on. His parents and the media are what deemed this a hate crime. It was just some guy playing cop and thinking he was a hero.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

In his mugshot, I have to admit it doesn't look like his nose was broken, but then again I'm not an expert.

I still do not think this was a racial incident. My neighborhood is a no outlet, newer construction subdivision with pretty expensive homes. It's small enough to know which kids live where. One night around 1:30am in the morning I saw 5 teens walking down my street with black hoods up. I didn't recognize any of them so I knew they were up to something, especially when one saw me looking out my window and they all stopped. They were all white. I didn't give a shit WHAT color they were, I called the cops and while I was on the phone with them, I heard some kind of gun- paintball or BB (they shot at a house 2 houses down). They didn't arrest them so I don't know what they were doing. Point of the story, if you're walking through a neighborhood you shouldn't be in (like a gated one), with a hood up at night, you ARE going to look suspicious. Zimmerman disobeying orders to stop following and then fatally shooting the kid is what he needs to be convicted of, not a racially motivated crime.

I know I'll get flamed for this but oh well. There are real hate crimes going on out there that Americans should focus on. His parents and the media are what deemed this a hate crime. It was just some guy playing cop and thinking he was a hero.

So, basically, wearing a hoodie makes everyone look suspect?

No one should ever get shot because 'they fit the description'. When it becomes ok to shoot people on sight for them being in the wrong place and not looking like the status quo for that area, then it just proves that we are moving backwards not forwards.

Also, , his father (with whom he was staying with) also lived in that gated community so he had EVERY RIGHT to be there.

You say there are real hate crimes out there? Gunning someone down in cold blood for no other reason than they look suspicious IMO is a hateful action but I am not the court. If Zimmerman wanted to play hero, all he simply had to do was stay inside and let the cops do their job and we really wouldn't have to have this convo right now.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

So, basically, wearing a hoodie makes everyone look suspect?

No one should ever get shot because 'they fit the description'. When it becomes ok to shoot people on sight for them being in the wrong place and not looking like the status quo for that area, then it just proves that we are moving backwards not forwards.

Also, , his father (with whom he was staying with) also lived in that gated community so he had EVERY RIGHT to be there.

You say there are real hate crimes out there? Gunning someone down in cold blood for no other reason than they look suspicious IMO is a hateful action but I am not the court. If Zimmerman wanted to play hero, all he simply had to do was stay inside and let the cops do their job and we really wouldn't have to have this convo right now.

So true. Not to mention, this wasnt in the middle of the night. I've been reading all of these posts with PM Mama admonishing people to wait for the facts, but this post sure got me. How does she know it wasn't racially motivated any more than others think it was? Wait for the facts to come in. Thankfully he has been arrested and the system will now be allowed to play out.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

So, basically, wearing a hoodie makes everyone look suspect?

That's not what she said. I tend to agree with her though, a group of teenagers at 1:30 a.m., with or without hoodies in a place they don't belong is pretty darn suspect. Having been a teenager once and been out at 1:30 a.m. a number of times, it's a damn miracle I don't have a rather lengthy juvenile record.

No one should ever get shot because 'they fit the description'. When it becomes ok to shoot people on sight for them being in the wrong place and not looking like the status quo for that area, then it just proves that we are moving backwards not forwards.

To be clear, are you suggesting that she was claiming it was okay to shoot those 5 hoodied teenagers in her post? I sure didn't see that.

Also, , his father (with whom he was staying with) also lived in that gated community so he had EVERY RIGHT to be there.

So did Zimmerman. The 'right to be there' aspect is pretty irrelevant on these facts. It's whether Zimmerman has a valid claim of self defense.

You say there are real hate crimes out there? Gunning someone down in cold blood for no other reason than they look suspicious IMO is a hateful action but I am not the court. If Zimmerman wanted to play hero, all he simply had to do was stay inside and let the cops do their job and we really wouldn't have to have this convo right now.

Not all the facts match up with your narrative. Of course it's not okay to gun someone down for looking suspicious. I don't think any of the facts of this case suggest it's quite that simple.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You say there are real hate crimes out there? Gunning someone down in cold blood for no other reason than they look suspicious IMO is a hateful action but I am not the court. If Zimmerman wanted to play hero, all he simply had to do was stay inside and let the cops do their job and we really wouldn't have to have this convo right now.

"Hateful action" is not a hate crime. A hate crime is a crime that is motivated by hatred toward, and therefore targeting of, a particular group of people/member of a particular group of people.

This is not solely based on the offender and victim being of different demographic characteristics. It is not enough that Zimmerman is Latino (some categorize him as white Hispanic) and Martin is Black. There has to be evidence that Zimmerman was targeting suspects on the basis of race OR was profiling suspects as being "unfamiliar" or "not belonging" because they were nonwhite.

*****

There are many predominantly white (I assume this particular community is predominantly, someone correct me if I'm wrong) communities in this country where a nonwhite person is automatically questioned. This is more likely to happen in predominantly white neighborhoods because white neighborhoods are more likely to feel empowered and socially advantaged enough to be so vigilant (not vigilante). I have been "politely challenged" by white neighbors if my hair or style of dress is different than when the last time they saw me. I have also been challenged when visiting my parents' neighborhoods in which my parents have lived for 40+ years. "Are you here to see so-and-so." Would I get these challenges and questions if I was white--probably not unless I was a particularly suspicious looking white person. I am not a suspicious looking Black person unless whites have already mapped out the token nonwhites in their gated community and paid particular attention to prevent their community from getting too many "of those people."

I'm all for attentive neighbors and neighborwood watch. I'm not all for only paying attention when you see an "other" and taking it upon yourself to be the police.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I still do not think this was a racial incident. Zimmerman disobeying orders to stop following and then fatally shooting the kid is what he needs to be convicted of, not a racially motivated crime.

There will be an investigation and trial to determine this.

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I know I'll get flamed for this but oh well.

You will especially get flamed if you announce that you think you'll get flamed...but oh well. Let your words stand alone.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I still do not think this was a racial incident. My neighborhood is a no outlet, newer construction subdivision with pretty expensive homes. It's small enough to know which kids live where. One night around 1:30am in the morning I saw 5 teens walking down my street with black hoods up. I didn't recognize any of them so I knew they were up to something, especially when one saw me looking out my window and they all stopped.

1 teen =/= group of teens. 1:30am =/= evening.

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

They were all white. I didn't give a shit WHAT color they were, I called the cops and while I was on the phone with them, I heard some kind of gun- paintball or BB (they shot at a house 2 houses down).

Is this the point where you try to convince us you're not racist because you know black people or something?

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

They didn't arrest them so I don't know what they were doing. Point of the story, if you're walking through a neighborhood you shouldn't be in (like a gated one), with a hood up at night, you ARE going to look suspicious. Zimmerman disobeying orders to stop following and then fatally shooting the kid is what he needs to be convicted of, not a racially motivated crime.

None of this illustrates that what Zimmerman did was right. But cool story, bro. Glad you didn't shoot those teenagers.

I didn't realize gated communities were high-class ghettos where the only people that are ever allowed in are the ones that live there. Is it really outside of your realm of understanding that Trayvon Martin was allowed to be in that neighborhood and it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to assume that he could walk to the convenience store and back without getting shot?

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I know I'll get flamed for this but oh well. There are real hate crimes going on out there that Americans should focus on. His parents and the media are what deemed this a hate crime. It was just some guy playing cop and thinking he was a hero.

Is this the part of the story where you accuse people of being mean and shutting down your opinions? "I'm going to get flamed for this" - would you like me to call you a whambulance?

Listen - I'm fine with giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt and allowing the courts to decide whether he is or is not guilty. That's totally fine. But portraying the victim as "up to something" isn't helpful. Practice what you preach - you just shared a longass story that's completely irrelevant to prove your point that, what? You think he's innocent?

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by agzg

Is this the point where you try to convince us you're not racist because you know black people or something?

Why is he asking that the case be sealed? I'm not entirely sure what that means but it sounds similar to when cases against minors are sealed after they're adults. Is that the same and if so, why would that apply here? Someone break it down for me, you know I lag on legal threads.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

In his mugshot, I have to admit it doesn't look like his nose was broken, but then again I'm not an expert.

I still do not think this was a racial incident. My neighborhood is a no outlet, newer construction subdivision with pretty expensive homes. It's small enough to know which kids live where. One night around 1:30am in the morning I saw 5 teens walking down my street with black hoods up. I didn't recognize any of them so I knew they were up to something, especially when one saw me looking out my window and they all stopped. They were all white. I didn't give a shit WHAT color they were, I called the cops and while I was on the phone with them, I heard some kind of gun- paintball or BB (they shot at a house 2 houses down). They didn't arrest them so I don't know what they were doing. Point of the story, if you're walking through a neighborhood you shouldn't be in (like a gated one), with a hood up at night, you ARE going to look suspicious. Zimmerman disobeying orders to stop following and then fatally shooting the kid is what he needs to be convicted of, not a racially motivated crime.

I know I'll get flamed for this but oh well. There are real hate crimes going on out there that Americans should focus on. His parents and the media are what deemed this a hate crime. It was just some guy playing cop and thinking he was a hero.

What the hell does any of this have to do with the Trayvon Martin case? Please keep your commentary to that which is relevant.