Keeping College Students from Voting

[DubaiSis]

The problem, as I see it, with requiring picture ID for voting is that IDs cost money. If you require an ID to vote, you have to make that ID available for free, and that includes getting the person to the place where the IDs are issued. In some places that is a very tall order and is a way of disenfranchising the poor. Secondly, this type of voter fraud just doesn't happen. It's legislating against hurricanes in Kansas. Being able to present your voter registration card should be sufficient. If the government has done their job, you shouldn't be issued one of those without having been properly vetted.

And if we only let people who understood all the issues vote, there would be probably 1% of the population allowed to vote. MOST people have a series of issues they care about and just guess on the others. I, on the other hand, TRIED to research every state judge who was up for re-election and do you know I couldn't find anything, INCLUDING asking friends who are members of the bar? At the time, I knew a lot of very connected lawyers and they couldn't give me the first clue about who the good ones were.

But back to college students. Your college bill will be one of the most expensive things you purchase in your whole life and will undoubtedly affect your entire future. Why shouldn't you be allowed to vote at school? Also, colleges have a great history of teaching kids the importance of social activism. And that goes for both young Republicans and young Democrats. If you allow those kids to vote now, they are going to be voters the entire rest of their lives. History says once you vote, you are a voter for the rest of your life. So grabbing them at 18 is critical to the future of American democracy.

Now, we can get into an argument about whether we REALLY want democracy or if we only want the right people making our decisions for us if you'd like. I live in a place where the right people make the decisions for me. Thankfully, he is a really good guy and really does what is right for his country. But would I plan for that to be true for the next 225 years? Democracy works such that the right will win out over the wrong, even when you let the people you think are stupid participate.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

The problem, as I see it, with requiring picture ID for voting is that IDs cost money. If you require an ID to vote, you have to make that ID available for free, and that includes getting the person to the place where the IDs are issued. In some places that is a very tall order and is a way of disenfranchising the poor. Secondly, this type of voter fraud just doesn't happen. It's legislating against hurricanes in Kansas. Being able to present your voter registration card should be sufficient. If the government has done their job, you shouldn't be issued one of those without having been properly vetted.

And if we only let people who understood all the issues vote, there would be probably 1% of the population allowed to vote. MOST people have a series of issues they care about and just guess on the others. I, on the other hand, TRIED to research every state judge who was up for re-election and do you know I couldn't find anything, INCLUDING asking friends who are members of the bar? At the time, I knew a lot of very connected lawyers and they couldn't give me the first clue about who the good ones were.

But back to college students. Your college bill will be one of the most expensive things you purchase in your whole life and will undoubtedly affect your entire future. Why shouldn't you be allowed to vote at school? Also, colleges have a great history of teaching kids the importance of social activism. And that goes for both young Republicans and young Democrats. If you allow those kids to vote now, they are going to be voters the entire rest of their lives. History says once you vote, you are a voter for the rest of your life. So grabbing them at 18 is critical to the future of American democracy.

Now, we can get into an argument about whether we REALLY want democracy or if we only want the right people making our decisions for us if you'd like. I live in a place where the right people make the decisions for me. Thankfully, he is a really good guy and really does what is right for his country. But would I plan for that to be true for the next 225 years? Democracy works such that the right will win out over the wrong, even when you let the people you think are stupid participate.

Amen!

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

The problem, as I see it, with requiring picture ID for voting is that IDs cost money. If you require an ID to vote, you have to make that ID available for free, and that includes getting the person to the place where the IDs are issued. In some places that is a very tall order and is a way of disenfranchising the poor.

Exactly this. Don't think for one second that this is about keeping college kids from voting because they vote liberal. This is about keeping the poors from voting.

It's not "that easy" for everyone to get a driver's license or passport. There are a lot of people out there who don't have one. Assuming everyone should have one (without legally requiring it in general which would be a huge clusterfuck and making it free) comes from a place of relative privilege.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

The problem, as I see it, with requiring picture ID for voting is that IDs cost money. If you require an ID to vote, you have to make that ID available for free, and that includes getting the person to the place where the IDs are issued. In some places that is a very tall order and is a way of disenfranchising the poor.

Not only the poor, but certain demographic segments of the population tend to be more likely not to have photo IDs. That is why efforts to require photo IDs are sometimes seen as little more than attempts to suppress the vote among minorty groups.

For example: Department of Justice objects to South Carolina's voter law

[SWTXBelle]

When I was an undergraduate (83-86) Hays County (TX) did all they could to prevent college students from voting in San Marcos because we skewed much more conservative than the rest of the county. College Republicans did a great deal of education to make sure students knew how to register and vote, and kept in touch to make sure they didn't pull stunts like telling students who were in line at the official polling close time they couldn't vote. We ended up being given credit by Texas Monthly for voting in the first Republican state senator since Reconstruction.

As for absentee voting, I lived in San Marcos all year - even students who didn't live there year-round lived there for the majority of the year, so the local politics would be of more immediate concern for students, not to mention the amount of money that constituency contributed to the local tax base. Having a voice there is important.

I can't buy some cold medicines without showing an i.d., can't get on a plane, can't open a bank account. Showing an i.d. to vote is a simple thing; if some groups need help to get their i.d.s community groups should help them do it. If the process needs to be simplified, then let's do it.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I can't buy some cold medicines without showing an i.d., can't get on a plane, can't open a bank account. Showing an i.d. to vote is a simple thing; if some groups need help to get their i.d.s community groups should help them do it. If the process needs to be simplified, then let's do it.

To the people that this affects, buying cold meds would be a luxury, getting on a plane a fairy tale, and opening a bank account a life-long goal (if they trust banks). Just for perspective, here.

However, I too believe that people should have legal photo IDs to vote and have trouble believing that there isn't some sort of assistance program for those who want/need an ID. If someone is motivated to vote, then they should follow the necessary steps. Sometimes rights involve due process.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

To the people that this affects, buying cold meds would be a luxury, getting on a plane a fairy tale, and opening a bank account a life-long goal (if they trust banks). Just for perspective, here.

However, I too believe that people should have legal photo IDs to vote and have trouble believing that there isn't some sort of assistance program for those who want/need an ID. If someone is motivated to vote, then they should follow the necessary steps. Sometimes rights involve due process.

While I'm sure you didn't mean "due process" in its meaning as legal term of art, it's still pretty ... bad ... to connect that with techniques historically only used to suppress certain voter groups.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

While I'm sure you didn't mean "due process" in its meaning as legal term of art, it's still pretty ... bad ... to connect that with techniques historically only used to suppress certain voter groups.

I didn't think "proper legal procedure" would much better and couldn't think of a more concise term.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

I didn't think "proper legal procedure" would much better and couldn't think of a more concise term.

That's what I figured ... completely understand.

The connection between "due process" and rights for the people (and onus on the authorities/state to follow prescribed processes to protect those rights), though, doesn't play all that well with what is essentially a poll tax - and, quite honestly, requiring ID is a form of poll tax.

Granted, it's a VERY low tax, money-wise - indeed, most of the 'tax' is on effort - and there are some perceived positives to guaranteeing each person is who they say they are. But it's still a poll tax. Whether the positives outweigh the rights issues is up to each person - for me, there are pretty easy solutions that don't involve this type of ID.

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

However, I too believe that people should have legal photo IDs to vote and have trouble believing that there isn't some sort of assistance program for those who want/need an ID. If someone is motivated to vote, then they should follow the necessary steps. Sometimes rights involve due process.

Ditto!

Plus, if folks want to talk about dirty campaign tactics... what about bussing "poor people" to the polling stations in exchange for a vote for a particular candidate? "Aw, how sweet, they gave me free transportation so I could vote, but I have to vote for their candidate." Yeah, because THAT's fair.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Ditto!

Plus, if folks want to talk about dirty campaign tactics... what about bussing "poor people" to the polling stations in exchange for a vote for a particular candidate? "Aw, how sweet, they gave me free transportation so I could vote, but I have to vote for their candidate." Yeah, because THAT's fair.

There are a lot of dirty campaign tactics. This discussion is not about competing discriminatory practices. There is plenty of discrimination to share.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Ditto!

Plus, if folks want to talk about dirty campaign tactics... what about bussing "poor people" to the polling stations in exchange for a vote for a particular candidate? "Aw, how sweet, they gave me free transportation so I could vote, but I have to vote for their candidate." Yeah, because THAT's fair.

I hope you realize that dirty campaigning happens on both sides of the aisle and across socioeconomic groups.

ETA: DrPhil beat me to the punch.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Ditto!

Plus, if folks want to talk about dirty campaign tactics... what about bussing "poor people" to the polling stations in exchange for a vote for a particular candidate? "Aw, how sweet, they gave me free transportation so I could vote, but I have to vote for their candidate." Yeah, because THAT's fair.

What about bussing "old people" (I'm trying to figure out why you put "poor people" in quotes) to the polling stations in exchange for a vote?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

LOL. That is EXACTLY why I posted it. Don't YOU see the irony? So the liberals can bus folks in to vote to stack the odds for their candidate, but the conservatives can't propose fair voting practice? Riiiiight.

It makes sense to me. "Fine, you want to bus in those people to vote, then make them have an ID to prove their citizenship and prevent fraud."

Can you address this:

Originally Posted by agzg

What about bussing "old people" (I'm trying to figure out why you put "poor people" in quotes) to the polling stations in exchange for a vote?

And why is this an issue during an election year? Why wasn't this proposed earlier?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by agzg

What about bussing "old people" (I'm trying to figure out why you put "poor people" in quotes) to the polling stations in exchange for a vote?

She probably put it in quotes because the idgits doing this are shortsighted enough to assume ALL blacks, or latinos, or seniors, or whatever group they're targeting, are poor.