Virgin Diaries

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Who is giving anyone "shit?"

I think you're being a little ridic.

When people put their lifestyles on TV, it gets talked about. No one is giving Christians "shit."

Also, I feel like I need to address your "everybody gets shit" comments. I tend to LOL when people get on their presecutory complex re: "getting shit" for being Christian.

America is probably the most comfortable place to be Christian. Seriously. Or really any other religion for that matter. Don't believe me? Go on a mission trip. Seriously, a TV show where people make fun of you pales in comparison to imprisonment.

[DrPhil]

For the record, since this thread is not just about the show, abstinence is not only a Christian thing.

Originally Posted by thetaj

I don't know, I feel like you're lumping together the extreme situations you've heard about and that you probably just haven't heard about the normal, healthy behaviors lots of Christian young adults have. Like I said before, I grew up southern baptist and NEVER had friends who were "everything but, including up the butt." I seriously can't name one person, and I went to a very large church. If anyone was, they would be true pioneers in the field as far as I know anyways.

The most interesting thing is that this topic isn't either/or. There are "lots of" Christian young adults around the world who are "everything but virgins" just as there are "lots of" Christian young adults around the world who are "normal, healthy virgins." This is all based on what these people have been taught is or is not appropriate.

Also, is it possible the "everything but, including up the butt" friends did not share that with the people they thought would ridicule them? When I was a teenager, the teenagers who were doing the sex, drugs, and drinking stuff would not have told me about it. I wasn't doing that stuff so I only hung with the other teens who weren't doing those things--and, if my friends were doing that stuff, they too would not have shared it with those of us who they thought would label them. I heard about a lot of stuff through listening to loud talking teen boys and girls telling their business and everyone else's business in homeroom, by the lockers, or at gym.

Originally Posted by thetaj

(sigh) I'm just tired of people getting shit for their traditionally Judeo-Christian beliefs. EVERYONE is a hypocrite. EVERYONE. But these Christian teens get it thrown in their faces and it's not helping anyone.

Uh...what?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

When people put their lifestyles on TV, it gets talked about. No one is giving Christians "shit."

Yep, these types of shows are meant to entertain. People who want to understand the plight of the Christian Virgin need not turn to TLC.

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

America is probably the most comfortable place to be Christian. Seriously. Or really any other religion for that matter. Don't believe me? Go on a mission trip. Seriously, a TV show where people make fun of you pales in comparison to imprisonment.

It's most comfortable for being a Christian. I have overheard people ridiculing Christianity and instead of getting offended I have reminded myself that almost everyday there are Christians around the world who ridicule agnostics, atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc. So, BOOM, fellow Christians. We need to get over the fact that we too say and do things that are considered ridiculous by other Christians and nonChristians. Our response should not be "EVERYONE is a hypocrite. EVERYONE" ( @ thetaj) because that type of response to any form of criticism is almost always silly. Plus, we certainly do not consider the "EVERYONE is a..." routine when we're busy giving our Biblical and nonBiblical opinions of Christians and nonChristians whose beliefs and lifestyles we disagree with.

I still find it funny that this has become about Christianity when it was really about virgins who happen to be Christian. The average Christian in North America (and the world?) is not a virgin despite how Christianity has been used as the "model for virginity."

[christiangirl]

^^^And not everyone who is an adult virgin (whether waiting for the "right person" or waiting until marriage) is a Christian or is doing so due to Christian values.

Violet, I'm not gonna pick apart your post but I notice that each of your points has more to do with the person/people involved in the pledge than something being wrong with the pledge (or concept of the pledge) itself.

Originally Posted by thetaj

I don't know, I feel like you're lumping together the extreme situations you've heard about and that you probably just haven't heard about the normal, healthy behaviors lots of Christian young adults have.

In the context of this thread, I would say this is happening moreso than "Christians getting sh*t." That either will happen or already has been happening a lot in response to this show outside of GC. But that is what happens when you take one particular group, portray it at its most extreme, and throw it out there for people to mock.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

^^^And not everyone who is an adult virgin (whether waiting for the "right person" or waiting until marriage) is a Christian or is doing so due to Christian values.

Yeah I said that in the other post.

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Violet, I'm not gonna pick apart your post but I notice that each of your points has more to do with the person/people involved in the pledge than something being wrong with the pledge (or concept of the pledge) itself.

Purity pledges gross me out when they consist of father-daughter purity balls, etc. I think that has been discussed on GC before. Just typing about it makes me want to vomit. The problems with those types of pledges are about the concept and something being wrong with the pledge, which is correlated with something being wrong with the adults who urge those types of pledges and the trickle down effect on the children who are encouraged to do those types of pledges.

I am also grossed out by purity pledges that are essentially about people being afraid of their own bodies. "THE DEVIL IS IN YOUR VAGINA!!! DON'T LET THE DEVIL OUT!"

I also consider it ridiculous that chastity pledges are more common for girls/women than boys/men. If this is truly about (insert whatever it is about), why is it more encouraged for girls/women?

I see nothing wrong with virginity and, for the people who are old enough to know about sex in the first place, I think it should be based on an understanding. It should not be based on scare tactics whether religious, bodily, etc.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

You're still here?

Let me clarify--I tell them to decide where the line is ahead of time. Not be hot and heavy with someone THEN say "Oh no, I want to stop here. This is where I'm uncomfortable." Of course these young girls (and boys, too) have the right to call stop time WHENEVER they are uncomfortable. But it's important to have a line and communicate where it is before even getting started.

CTFU! You expected me to leave or something? I feel you on this, though. I misread your first post.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Ewwww! NO!! I think that's disgusting. To each its own, but I wouldn't do that with my husband when I marry. And I never said anything about oral, anal, or whatever. Yes, I was referring to something different, but that isn't any of your business.

I keep getting you and christiangirl mixed up. Your names look similar and y'all post alike.

Sex toys? LOL it's all good if you don't want to post it. Some people aren't cool with anal, but that doesn't make it 'disgusting' like you think it is, especially of you've never tried it. 'Don't knock it til you try it'. What's wrong with oral?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

I keep getting you and christiangirl mixed up. Your names look similar and y'all post alike.

Then you should have been here for the CG vs. CG battles of years past. They were Mortal Kombatting it! ROUND 1, FIGHT up in this piece!

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

Sex toys? LOL it's all good if you don't want to post it. Some people aren't cool with anal, but that doesn't make it 'disgusting' like you think it is, especially of you've never tried it. 'Don't knock it til you try it'. What's wrong with oral?

How did this thread become THIS? Oh yeah, because cheerfulgreek talked about sexual intimacy without copulation.

Maybe cheerfulgreek is talking about those mental sex episodes that some couples are doing. You lay down together and mentally stimulate each other to the point of physical orgasm. I call it "brain drain." I had a college friend who did this with her boyfriend. She said it was like actual sex without any oral, vaginal, or anal stimulation. Whatever floats their boat.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

I keep getting you and christiangirl mixed up. Your names look similar and y'all post alike.

You might want to do a search. If not, here's a couple of recaps.
http://youtu.be/phEhGqsPeK0
http://youtu.be/rWepTvC6y8Y

"Can't the two CGs just get along?" -Rodney King

[christiangirl]

^^Do you save those clips in a file so you can break them out once a year??

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Purity pledges gross me out when they consist of father-daughter purity balls, etc. I think that has been discussed on GC before.

It has and I agreed that makes me wanna throw up a little. I allowed my dad to put my ring on me (standing in our kitchen when it came in the mail) and he kissed my forehead and said he was proud of me. That's the most involvement he has had in my (non)sex life. Anything further would have me creeped the eff out.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"THE DEVIL IS IN YOUR VAGINA!!! DON'T LET THE DEVIL OUT!"

Obligatory pillow pants clip (nsfw): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYLt-YSiz0Y

Originally Posted by DrPhil

mental sex episodes

WTH? People do that? I'm imagining some cross between guided imagery and some kinda sex hypnosis. That sounds....weird.

(no longer directed at Phil) Honestly, there about 100 steps from 0 to sex. A couple can be physically intimate on several levels but people who have had sex seem not to ever think of them because they go straight for the gusto. Then there are those who won't even kiss for fear they'll get horny and skip steps 2-98. It isn't all about finding loopholes--you get to explore each other and find out what the other likes in the simplest, most innocent ways. If you feel so inclined to see what I mean, try it out.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

Sex toys?

Seriously? You're strange...Anyway, what goes on in my bedroom is none of your business.

I never heard of the other "mental" stuff that was posted. Weird, but to each its own.

eta: I've never researched it, but I'm hearing that oral sex causes throat cancer or something.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Munchkin--Is there a reason why you think chastity pledges are "God-awful?" Because that's a pretty strong word for something that is actually a nice sentiment (if you're serious about it, which the people you knew CLEARLY weren't). The pledge should be an affirmation of what one has already decided because your signature on the card alone will do precisely jack if you hadn't thought about it before someone handed the card to you.

There are several reasons I find these pledges ridiculous:

1. They don't really work. There is some delay in starting intercourse, but not much--and some of that delay can be explained by other factors. The vast majority of kids who take the pledges are still going to have premarital sex. While the STI transmission rates are the same, it seems that the pledgers' diagnoses are made at much later stages--which sets the stage for major problems later on, including cervical cancer and infertility.

There's also the studies out there that suggest that once pledgers are sexually active, they're less responsible. Since that could be a side effect of abstinence-only education, I won't put that solely on the pledges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/us...rely-kept.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...-pledges_N.htm

2. It's a way to control female sexuality. Your father controls your sexuality until he passes it off to your husband. The imagery of locks and keys is a little gross to me as well. I understand parents not wanting their kids to be hurt but this takes it to a whole other level. Like a reverse Electra complex.

Furthermore, it increases the Madonna/whore duality.

This sounds like an extreme case, but check this out: http://www.glamour.com/sex-love-life...1/purity-balls

3. It puts the responsibility on girls. While girls are exhorted to "stay pure," there's no corollary for the boys. While I'd imagine that there are plenty of young men who take these pledges, they're geared towards women. There are no mother/son balls--and any woman who organized such a thing would be pilloried.

4. Kids are encouraged to make these pledges when they're too young. I'd imagine the guilt and irresponsibility once sex actually happens is related to this. While there are some fast kids out there, most 11 and 12 year olds aren't thinking about sex. They also have very black-and-white views of the world. It's very easy to get someone that young to make a pledge without really understanding what it means.

It also appears that some of the surveys supporting the pledges only focused on younger kids who had taken the pledges within the past year. I'm sure that made the numbers look better than if they had waited to see what happened 5 years out.

--------

Don't get me wrong--I'm not anti-virginity. I think that boys and girls should wait to have sex until they can handle the emotional and physical responsibilities and consequences. These pledges, however, aren't the way to go.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

It has and I agreed that makes me wanna throw up a little. I allowed my dad to put my ring on me (standing in our kitchen when it came in the mail) and he kissed my forehead and said he was proud of me. That's the most involvement he has had in my (non)sex life. Anything further would have me creeped the eff out.

Did your dad putting the ring on you symbolize something?

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

There are several reasons I find these pledges ridiculous:

1. They don't really work. There is some delay in starting intercourse, but not much--and some of that delay can be explained by other factors. The vast majority of kids who take the pledges are still going to have premarital sex. While the STI transmission rates are the same, it seems that the pledgers' diagnoses are made at much later stages--which sets the stage for major problems later on, including cervical cancer and infertility.

There's also the studies out there that suggest that once pledgers are sexually active, they're less responsible. Since that could be a side effect of abstinence-only education, I won't put that solely on the pledges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/us...rely-kept.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...-pledges_N.htm

2. It's a way to control female sexuality. Your father controls your sexuality until he passes it off to your husband. The imagery of locks and keys is a little gross to me as well. I understand parents not wanting their kids to be hurt but this takes it to a whole other level. Like a reverse Electra complex.

Furthermore, it increases the Madonna/whore duality.

This sounds like an extreme case, but check this out: http://www.glamour.com/sex-love-life...1/purity-balls

3. It puts the responsibility on girls. While girls are exhorted to "stay pure," there's no corollary for the boys. While I'd imagine that there are plenty of young men who take these pledges, they're geared towards women. There are no mother/son balls--and any woman who organized such a thing would be pilloried.

4. Kids are encouraged to make these pledges when they're too young. I'd imagine the guilt and irresponsibility once sex actually happens is related to this. While there are some fast kids out there, most 11 and 12 year olds aren't thinking about sex. They also have very black-and-white views of the world. It's very easy to get someone that young to make a pledge without really understanding what it means.

It also appears that some of the surveys supporting the pledges only focused on younger kids who had taken the pledges within the past year. I'm sure that made the numbers look better than if they had waited to see what happened 5 years out.

--------

Don't get me wrong--I'm not anti-virginity. I think that boys and girls should wait to have sex until they can handle the emotional and physical responsibilities and consequences.

I agree.

I won't say these pledges are completely not the way to go because I don't want people who have taken the pledge at any age to feel as though they are doing something wrong. I have more of a problem with how many adults (parents) have forced these pledges on their children. It makes it a very strange process that has had a particular impact on how girls and young women view their bodies and view men. Men are viewed as sexual creatures who can't stop themselves so girls need to keep their vagina locked down. Bullshit. And, no, a father (or any parent) does not own a daughter's vagina so he is not who will be giving the vagina to the man (or woman or both) that the daughter will eventually have sex with (if she eventually has sex). That is too close to the ownership of women and the selling of brides that cultures around the world have been chastised for.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

1. They don't really work.
2. It's a way to control female sexuality.
3. It puts the responsibility on girls.
4. Kids are encouraged to make these pledges when they're too young.

Again, all of these things really speak more to the people behind the pledges than the pledges themselves. The pledge does not make a person see sex as something dirty or bad. If the young person has immense guilt after having sex, they would very likely have that guilt whether or not they had signed that little card. I say this because, if the person did not already feel that premarital sex was something they shouldn't do, they would not have sworn before God not to do it. If the church and/or family is pushing the young person to make the pledge, then that church and/family were likely attempting to control these kids (read: girls) way before the pledge was thought of and would continue to do so after. The vow of purity is like a marriage vow in a sense--one can make it when they are not ready or totally skew the meaning of the words to control another person (usually the wife). But the amount of power the words have depends entirely on the person saying them and the ideals that have already been instilled in them prior to the vow.

FTR I am not a fan of churches or families encouraging kids/teens to take the purity vow. It's a deeply personal decision that no parent can make for you and the choice to make it/keep it/break it is up to the you. If you have been raised to make the decision for yourself and stick by whatever values you have that make this the best choice for you, then the pledge is really just a nice afterthought to a decision already made. If it's the opposite scenario, the pledge itself isn't the cause of a sort of sexist shame--that would be there because of a sexist, shame-fostering environment.

BTW Munchkin, I have seen photos from mother-son purity balls and I feel the same about them as the father-daughter ones--they were slightly vomitatious and the boys looked WAY too young.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Did your dad putting the ring on you symbolize something?

It symbolized how proud he was of me and the fact that I made such a huge decision (for very sound reasons) on my own. He was obviously very pleased that I wouldn't be having sex (what dad wouldn't be?) but moreso that I had really thought through why it was the best choice for me and my life. I didn't want a public announcement or for him to take me to a ball--that was the first and last time we ever talked about it.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then you should have been here for the CG vs. CG battles of years past. They were Mortal Kombatting it! ROUND 1, FIGHT up in this piece!



How did this thread become THIS? Oh yeah, because cheerfulgreek talked about sexual intimacy without copulation.

Maybe cheerfulgreek is talking about those mental sex episodes that some couples are doing. You lay down together and mentally stimulate each other to the point of physical orgasm. I call it "brain drain." I had a college friend who did this with her boyfriend. She said it was like actual sex without any oral, vaginal, or anal stimulation. Whatever floats their boat.

CTFU! at Mortal Kombatting it. I died.

See, any time a couple has to do some mental shit just to get off, isn't that taking things too far? I would think it would be easier to just go ahead and do it. For real, though.

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

You might want to do a search. If not, here's a couple of recaps.
http://youtu.be/phEhGqsPeK0
http://youtu.be/rWepTvC6y8Y

"Can't the two CGs just get along?" -Rodney King

ROTFLMAO! Looks personal to me, so I'll stay out of that one LOL!