Occupy Wall Street

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Wow, things are getting out of hand now..
http://lol.escoflip.com/

Darn it, darn it to hell

[DrPhil]

Trouble arises as the Occupiers realize their shit DOES stink. They are now bickering over who is among the top 1% of the Occupiers (every group has a top percent of members); and over who is the Head Occupier In Charge.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45285979/ns/us_news-life/

[ASTalumna06]

Many businesses continue to struggle due to the protests

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...815904944.html

Over the weekend, I heard on the radio that collectively, some businesses are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. As this article points out, sales are actually up in some areas, but in others, there are large drops in profits, layoffs are necessary, and business owners are becoming frustrated.

On the news tonight, one restaurant owner said that people are sneaking in through the back door, and some are actually changing their clothes (underwear included) in the restaurant and leaving these dirty items for him to pick up. Yuck.

Ironically, the 99% are pissing off other people in the 99% and causing them to struggle to make a living.

[ASTalumna06]

The Occupiers can't even agree as to whether or not they should make any demands...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45260610/ns/us_news-life/

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

The Occupiers can't even agree as to whether or not they should make any demands...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45260610/ns/us_news-life/

I've been wondering about that the entire time.

Kudos for protesting and taking a stand, but what are you standing for? I have several fraternity brothers who are very involved in this movement, and none of them have been able to tell me about it.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I've been wondering about that the entire time.

Kudos for protesting and taking a stand, but what are you standing for? I have several fraternity brothers who are very involved in this movement, and none of them have been able to tell me about it.

Exaaactly.

And even if they DID know what they wanted, half of them don't even want to tell the rest of us.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

The Occupiers can't even agree as to whether or not they should make any demands...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45260610/ns/us_news-life/

This is why true democracies rarely work on a large scale. I'm sorry, but to get anything accomplished you really need a structured leadership.

[amIblue?]

Portland Pepper Spray Shot

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...ccident/45186/

If someone emailed me this, I would think it was Photoshopped.

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Ironically, the 99% are pissing off other people in the 99% and causing them to struggle to make a living.

I. LOVE. THIS!!!

Now they are discovering what those of us in public health have known for years: when you get a whole bunch of people together in one place, they will have to use facilities...they will generate garbage that needs dealt with...and if sanitation facilities are inadequate, things are going to become a big mess pretty quickly.

Really, if this was a bunch of homeless crackheads doing these things in a park, the police would have already rounded them up and taken them to jail. It's like it's accepted because they are middle-class. That's a double standard.

I'm tired of these people, personally. They are resource-sappers for the rest of the 99%. And they don't speak for me. I can't relate to 99% of what comes out of their mouths. Complaining about not being automatically zoomed into Upper Middle America with their (often irrelevant) college degrees. Well, get over it- working class people have been struggling for generations. Even at its worst, their lives are so much better than the lives of so many in this country. I can't help feel they are not fighting for the truly underpriveledged, but they are just irate because their lives haven't turned out exactly the way society has told them they should by age 25, because we are in a recession.

And if they are so concerned with inequalities in this country, do something productive, like tutor at an after-school center (if there are any left, with all the funding cuts...but that's another post) for underpriveledged kids. 4 or 5 hours spent sitting in a tent doesn't do JACK for the real problems in this country. 4 or 5 hours spent working with a kid who really wants to understand Algebra but just isn't getting it without help does a LOT. Think of the power of thousands- if they would all just go volunteer for those hours, instead of sitting around in tents- amazing things could happen. These ARE edcuated, intelliegent people- pool your resources and start looking for places where you can ACTUALLY make a difference instead of pulling this stunt.

I think it's kind of funny (but I'm just mean like that)...the Occupy movement has finally come to Newark, NJ. They were told to get out of the parks by dusk, but then the police changed their mind and let them stay. The caveat? "You are on your own," the police Captain said. "Call 911 if there's an emergency." And then the officers left to go patrol the neighborhoods.

I totally agree with this approach. There are far too few police officers in cities these days due to all the crazy budget issues- those officers need to be in the neighborhoods, tackling the very real issues that are happening there, not baby-sitting a bunch of people who think sitting in a park is going to change the national tax structure (which ain't happening.)

I know, I'm just a big meanie But honestly, what is sitting in a park doing to change the world? It's not 1969!!!

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by *winter*

Really, if this was a bunch of homeless crackheads doing these things in a park, the police would have already rounded them up and taken them to jail. It's like it's accepted because they are middle-class. That's a double standard.

Um, homeless crackheads live on the streets all the time and nobody does anything at all about it. There aren't enough jails...

Originally Posted by *winter*

Complaining about not being automatically zoomed into Upper Middle America with their (often irrelevant) college degrees. Well, get over it- working class people have been struggling for generations. Even at its worst, their lives are so much better than the lives of so many in this country. I can't help feel they are not fighting for the truly underpriveledged, but they are just irate because their lives haven't turned out exactly the way society has told them they should by age 25, because we are in a recession.

This isn't the complaint. The complaint is that no matter what you or anybody else does, you are completely and totally powerless in determining the future of our country, laws, financial state, etc. Because corporations have all the power. This is NOT a government of the people, by the people or for the people. It is a corrupt hotbed of corporate greed. Is that really ok with you?

Originally Posted by *winter*

And if they are so concerned with inequalities in this country, do something productive, like tutor at an after-school center (if there are any left, with all the funding cuts...but that's another post) for underpriveledged kids. These ARE edcuated, intelliegent people- pool your resources and start looking for places where you can ACTUALLY make a difference instead of pulling this stunt.

The bolded part is exactly what they are protesting!

Originally Posted by *winter*

I think it's kind of funny (but I'm just mean like that)...the Occupy movement has finally come to Newark, NJ. They were told to get out of the parks by dusk, but then the police changed their mind and let them stay. The caveat? "You are on your own," the police Captain said. "Call 911 if there's an emergency." And then the officers left to go patrol the neighborhoods.

This is what the Occupy people want them to do. Watching the Portland standoff, with police in riot gear and the crowd chanting "We are a peaceful people" and "You don't need your riot gear, we don't see a riot here." This was after the police forced them out of a park, into one block of a street, packed in like sardines, and then announced over a bullhorn that if they didn't move to a sidewalk, they could be subject to arrest or physical, chemical or biological means of force. The sidewalk was packed, the street was packed and the police were blocking ALL possible points of egress. That was total B.S. Herd a group into a space for no reason, then tell them to leave or be arrested or injured and give them no way to leave???

Originally Posted by *winter*

I know, I'm just a big meanie But honestly, what is sitting in a park doing to change the world? It's not 1969!!!

Maybe it needs to be. What would you do to change the world? How would you get media attention from all over the world to look at real problems in our societal structure?

I will say that I have not agreed with every direct action they have implemented. Blocking subways during NYC rush hour doesn't hurt anybody but the rest of the 99%. Whether I agree with all of their ideas and methods or not, they have a right to be heard and a right to protest. We have the First Amendment for a reason. The 1% is clearly getting uncomfortable with this movement and orchestrated raids on Occupy camps all in the same night all over the country. The old saying is, First they ignore you, then they fight back, then you win. As they often change "The whole world is watching." This says to me that they are winning.

Check this out: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1....html#liveblog Sounds like the 1% is getting scared to me.

[*winter*]

Um, homeless crackheads live on the streets all the time and nobody does anything at all about it. There aren't enough jails...

Point being, they get rounded up and arrested on a regular basis. In Pittsburgh they've been pretty nasty in terms of taking their belongings and raiding their camps during the day when they are empty. And certainly if there were as many of them as there are Occupy protesters, in one big place, making what amounts to a giant mess, they would all be rounded up and carted off to jail. They don't have cell phone cameras or vidoe recording devices. How do we know how the police treat them? We don't. Do these kids care? Doubtful. Bless the ones who are working with the homeless in the area, but they are the exception.

This isn't the complaint. The complaint is that no matter what you or anybody else does, you are completely and totally powerless in determining the future of our country, laws, financial state, etc. Because corporations have all the power. This is NOT a government of the people, by the people or for the people. It is a corrupt hotbed of corporate greed. Is that really ok with you?

Bull. It's the United States, not India. You are NEVER, ever totally powerless- I just refuse to believe that. As a veteran who swore up and down I'd die to defend this country and what it stands for, that statement really offends me. Not every politician is in someone's back pocket- and if there are so many that are that bad, to quote one Union official, "the only thing you need to be occupying is a voting booth."

It's not okay with me, but it's not been okay with me and my family basically since we got off the boat. Look at how factories treated workers in the 20th century, and when they didn't get their way in the US anymore, they packed up and moved the whole operation overseas, thus basically killing off the towns left behind. Not to mention the tens of thousands of orphaned dump sites they still have yet to clean up. Not to mention drafting our kids to fight in their wars (a roundabout version still occurring with the wars and the population most likely to "volunteer" for them) So, yeah...corporations being selfish and not thinking about the workers- this is NOT breaking news. It's only an "issue" since Middle America feels put out by the whole thing. If it was just the lower class, as its been for the entirety of the country's history, it would be business as usual.

The bolded part is exactly what they are protesting!

But their protesting is only making it worse for cities. There are only so many resources to go around. That's why I agree with the police Captain telling them they are on their own. For most of them, it's not THEIR city, it's not their tax dollars funding the police department, so too bad- quit hogging resources from the rest of the 99%.

God forbid someone like my mother/sister (62 with osteoperosis, and mother of a toddler, respectively) would be calling 911 for a true emergency, and the lines would be clogged, or the police/fire/EMS dispatched elsewhere over this nonsense. If that was your family, living in a city, dependent on already limited resources, how would you feel? People living in high-crime areas in cities need to know with 100% certainty that if they call 911 for a life-threatening emergency, that there will be officers available to answer. I'm sorry, but protesting is just NOT that important in the grand scheme of things.

Maybe it needs to be. What would you do to change the world?

I'm already doing it. Just because I'm not a protester doesn't mean I'm not changing the world. What I'm doing in individual lives and individual communities will have exponentially more of an impact than what these people are doing. Because, at the end of the day, do you really think the 1% cares? Fight them one on one when there's injustice in your own community, inequalities in your own school district, get out there and meet the people who are dealing with them and their gas wells, or their coal mines, that's what I'm doing. And I'm incredibly proud of my work, and what is yet to come.

How would you get media attention from all over the world to look at real problems in our societal structure?

Who cares about social media attention? The last time I turned on my TV, it told me Kim K's wedding was the biggest event in the news. Point proven.

Whether I agree with all of their ideas and methods or not, they have a right to be heard and a right to protest. We have the First Amendment for a reason.

Great, speak- there's freedom of speech. But don't use your cause to drain resources and throw your dirty underwear and human excrement around. Other people in the area have rights too- why are their rights to free speech "more important" than everyone else's basic rights to live in a clean and safe community?

The 1% is clearly getting uncomfortable with this movement and orchestrated raids on Occupy camps all in the same night all over the country. The old saying is, First they ignore you, then they fight back, then you win. As they often change "The whole world is watching." This says to me that they are winning.

Again, most of the world watches the Jersey Shore, so just because the world is watching does not mean it is going to bring positive change.

The 1% does not give an F. Walk into Goldman Sachs. I bet it's business as usual. They know they are untouchable, and they've already gotten bailed out.

The ones I deal with feel untouchable- they are in a situation where they have lied, cheated and stole to get where they are (all things we have proof of- in due time, it will all come to light) and when asked politely to come to the table and bargain with the community, they snub their noses! Because they know they can!!! They have top-notch lawyers, they have always gotten over on the people, so they think this time will be no different. Their arrogance is absolutely astounding. Based on this dealing, I would not exect much from the 1% no matter how many places people "Occupy."

But that does not make them untouchable. The truth is untouchable. Justice is untouchable. Once there is an arena to be held accountable in a court of law, hopefully justice will prevail, and thus prove my point- this country has a lot of flaws, but the rich and powerful don't always win.

And then the inevitable, "Well that's what they are protesting!" One, I don't completely agree that that is what they are protesting (more on that below). Two, I don't think protesting will change things, but I do know that fighting for our communities every day WILL. Maybe not on a global level, but one on one, and that's important, too. That's where I choose to concentrate my energy. It is frustrating when you are volunteering with a skeleton crew on feral cat management, or with Big Brothers Big Sisters, Salvation Army, or any other organization that can't find enough volunteers, but there are 1000 people sitting in a park. To me, that's maddening.

This does not apply for ALL protesters, but for many of them...I can't help think if their lives had worked out the way they "thought" they would (i.e. graduate college, get a great job, in 5 years marry and buy a brand-new overpriced house in a development, buy a giant SUV, move up in the corporate world) they wouldn't be protesting. They'd be exactly where they thought they'd always be: off in the suburbs, living lives ignorant of the struggles of the rest of the country.

Not only do they want a piece of the pie, their problem is they've felt ENTITLED to the pie, as a virtue of their social class and standing, for their entires lives. When that doesn't automatically happen at 22 years old, they can't handle it. The "pie" is not your birthright. The ability to succeed still exists in this country. It is not dead. Fight for what is yours and eventually success will come.

[AGDee]

I think you're off on the demographics of the people protesting. There are doctors and nurses volunteering in the medical tent at Occupy Detroit. They are providing medical care with donated supplies to ANYBODY who stops in there. They provided food to all of the homeless who came to eat and tent space to those who wanted it. There are small business owners donating vast amounts of food, a warehouse and other supplies. The rallies have people in business suits coming right from work, old and young.. The church leaders in the city are supportive and allowing safe parking in their parking lots. Some of Detroit's City Council have been at protests as have the Fire Department and off duty Police. These are not all college students or young recent grads who haven't found work. They are not all unemployed. I discussed the demographics of people at the rally in Chicago that I witnessed way back in this thread. I admit, some of my perspective is limited because most of my knowledge comes from Occupy Detroit, but I've seen positive actions in other Occupy cities too. In Washington, DC, they have taken over a building that is a closed homeless shelter and are working to get it in good condition again and demanding that it be re-opened because it is needed.

The only time Detroit ever rounded up homeless people and took them anywhere was two weeks before we hosted the Super Bowl. They have tent cities and those don't get closed down.

One Occupy (I think it is Portland) was using the restrooms in the park where they had set up camp until the city shut the water off. They were also cleaning those restrooms. Then they had porta potties donated. They weren't leaving human waste anywhere, yet they got evicted from camp. The police told them they had to leave and they started packing up their belongings, peacefully. They were taking things to their cars and then not allowed back in to get the rest. Their stuff was destroyed.

I've yet to see a politician who wasn't taking PAC money for their campaign or influenced by lobbyists. Sure, we get to vote, but, above the city level, all candidates are essentially chosen by the political party and pushed and supported by the parties. I remember when McCain won the Republican primary in Michigan over Bush in 2000. The Republican party was mad, really mad and flooded the media with statements about Democrats poisoned the primary by voting for McCain. It was infuriating, as a usual Democrat who was one of those who vote for McCain, not to *poison* the vote, but because McCain, at that time, was a Republican I felt I could support.

On top of that, several states have taken away the right to vote for their local officials in the form of emergency managers who can fire all the officials that the local people elected. I'm mad as hell about that.

Protests and movements of this type have effected change. The Tea Party has DEFINITELY effected change and they started out as a protest movement like this. The women burning their bras in the early 70s while trying to get the ERA passed (and I am STILL angry that women don't have an amendment declaring us equal to men), did effect change. The Civil Rights movement did effect change. None of these changes happened over night. We still have a long way to go in some of these areas, but those movements started us heading in the right direction.

I am sorry that you are offended, as a veteran, at my statement that we are powerless. I think that if I were a veteran, I'd be angry at the structure that has taken away our power rather than the statement that it has happened.

I do agree that the Occupy movement should be more careful about their direct actions. Like I said, blocking subways (which is an action that requires police intervention) is not a useful tactic. However, in other cases, there was no reason for a city to use the kind of police resources that they used. When Bank of America announced the $5 debit card fee, and they protested that and encouraged people to move to other banks, BoA decided to renounce that fee. It's a small example of change, but it is happening.

Our news media is covering Occupy every day.

As someone who has been fighting for success every day, I disagree that if you fight hard enough, it will come. Some would define me as successful and in some ways, I am. "They" said that my generation would be the first to not do as well or better than our parents and I'm feeling that now. As I prepare to do my daughter's FAFSA forms, it has hit me that I make less money now, in 2011 than my dad did in 1983 when we did MY financial aid forms. My tuition was $45 a credit hour. The tuition at the same school now is $246 a credit hour but I make LESS money than my dad did at this stage of life, with more education, more qualifications, a solid work history and consistently superior performance evaluations at every job I've had.

All of the things that were available and promised in the 80s when I started my first career job are gone- pensions, health insurance after retirement, and probably social security and medicare (which I've paid into my whole life but will likely not get anything back), company loyalty (because I can't tell you how many people I see get laid off just before they can retire so that what few bennies are out there don't have to be paid). I've had 5 different pension funds go away because the business went bankrupt. I've worked damn hard, continually upgraded my skills, gotten certifications and degrees and for what? To realize that I am powerless because our system is broken.

I've had to make financial decisions that were tough. I choose to live in a very modest ranch house with no garage. I choose to not get things like my carpet replaced, despite its poor condition because I want to give my kids experiences. I made a conscious decision a few years ago that giving them life experiences, such as People to People trips, Boy Scout camp trips, special pre-college programs, is more important than whether our carpet is worn or our furniture has holes in the upholstery. I am determined to help them with college as much as humanly possible so that they don't graduate in a heap of massive debt. But I'm in a very weird income bracket... one where I qualify for little, but can't afford much. I am solidly middle class. I have never lived extravagantly. I don't own designer stuff. In my 46 years, I've had 3 new cars. I don't need that stuff. But, I'm tired of financing corporate exec bonuses, and this movement has made me more aware.

So, I haven't actually participated in an Occupy rally here in Detroit. But I'm making changes. I'm supporting local businesses. I'm supporting mom and pop restaurants and stores as much as I can. I'm moving away from box stores and chains. I'm refusing to use credit, except for work travel (because that gets paid off before interest is paid), to avoid giving banks more money so I can keep it for myself. I am contemplating moving my banking to a credit union, although my bank, PNC, has not been as bad as some of the others so I haven't done that yet. These are actions that the Occupy movement are encouraging.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by AGDee

So, I haven't actually participated in an Occupy rally here in Detroit. But I'm making changes. I'm supporting local businesses. I'm supporting mom and pop restaurants and stores as much as I can. I'm moving away from box stores and chains. I'm refusing to use credit, except for work travel (because that gets paid off before interest is paid), to avoid giving banks more money so I can keep it for myself. I am contemplating moving my banking to a credit union, although my bank, PNC, has not been as bad as some of the others so I haven't done that yet. These are actions that the Occupy movement are encouraging.

I like this.

[carnation]

Yep.

But I do feel like I'm back in the sixties again.

[AOII Angel]

I completely agree with you, Dee. It also makes me sad when people who THINK they are middle class support the status quo saying things like, "I have three jobs to make ends meet; they just need to stop protesting a get a job." Seriously, they think it's reasonable to have to get three jobs to make a living wage. That is a problem.