Former Penn State Coach Arrested

[psusue]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I don't think Paterno's imminent resignation is sad at all. I think the ongoing rape of children, with Paterno among others looking the other way, is sad as hell.

While I understand that you mean that JoePa's resignation is not as sad as what happened to these children, it is still sad. And I think that it is also unwarranted; JoePa is not to blame here. Sandusky, Curley, and and Schultz are. McQueery and JoePa did what they were supposed to do-- which is to follow the chain of command.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I

I don't know what Paterno really knew, nor will I ever (most likely). And if this is how his time at Penn State has to end, so be it. But it doesn't make it any less heart-breaking.

Thank you. Every conversation I've overheard today is about this topic. I've talked about it in most classes. This school's heart is breaking for the families of this tragedy and how our administration is making a mess of it. PSU is more than a university-- it's a family. When something like this happens to one of us, it happens to all of us. But I cannot let the actions of a disgusting few affect my view of this university that has done so much for me.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Agreed. It's incredible that someone like Paterno let this go so far.

Let's not kid ourselves: Paterno has more power than anyone at that school, including the administration. If he went to the administration and wanted this information taken to the authorities, they would have done it.

JoePa is only a man. I think we all forget this when we wear our rose colored glasses and drink the Kool-Aid, but he is. He did what he was supposed to do. He followed up with the case after reporting it, but child abuse cases take awhile to move, legendary head football coach or not. His superiors said they were taking care of it and he believed them. I can't say I would have done differently.

Originally Posted by kddani

The district attorney of that county disappeared in April 2005 and was just recently declared dead (never found a body). There are all kinds of conspiracy theories on that one. He investigated the '98 incident.

Just a little while ago, ESPN showed Penn State students rallying outside of JoePa's house. No, not telling him to resign. Begging him to stay. Disgusting.

Let me repeat-- JoePa is being made a scapegoat by the media because he is the most famous person involved. Period. He has not been charged with anything and I don't think that they have the grounds to try. I stand behind this man until he is charged and convicted of a crime. Otherwise he has my support. He and McQueery did as they should have and trusted the wrong people. It is the other three that should burn for this, not them.

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Saw this on Sportcenter. Disgusting.

His lack of action here makes him just as guilty in my eyes.

No, I don't care that (as some say) "hey may not have gotten the full story from the people who told him, so maybe he mistakenly didn't think it was that big of a deal."

When you hear about something like that going on, I feel like it doesn't matter how much you were/were not told. You should take it upon yourself to see what's going on. Especially since this is your program.

He did act. That is what I'm getting at here. Maybe it seems odd to you that I feel the need to vindicate him on this but believe me I cannot rest until I try. This man is more than a football coach to us-- he's like the grandfather of the university. Several members of my family have met him, people I've known have been friends with him, he represents all that Penn State is to us-- pride, loyalty, honor, and tradition. Do I believe that he did all that he could have done in this situation? Perhaps not everything, and this will haunt him for the rest of his life if it's true. But he did do something. He reported what was told to him. He checked in on the situation. He did what he was supposed to do.

This is a horrible situation to be sure and I pray for every child and family involved. But let us not get into a pitchfork frenzy and forget the facts. The facts are that neither JoePa nor McQueery were charged with anything. As such they cannot be convicted and remain innocent in my eyes. Graham Spanier is being investigated, as are the other three. If they are found to be guilty, I will wash my hands of them. But not of Joe and McQueery. Honestly I think they are being scapegoated and while he may be made to resign, it will not be a reflection on him or his life's work but an administration that protected an unworthy and hugely effed up a lot of lives.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by psusue

While I understand that you mean that JoePa's resignation is not as sad as what happened to these children, it is still sad. And I think that it is also unwarranted; JoePa is not to blame here. Sandusky, Curley, and and Schultz are. McQueery and JoePa did what they were supposed to do-- which is to follow the chain of command.



Thank you. Every conversation I've overheard today is about this topic. I've talked about it in most classes. This school's heart is breaking for the families of this tragedy and how our administration is making a mess of it. PSU is more than a university-- it's a family. When something like this happens to one of us, it happens to all of us. But I cannot let the actions of a disgusting few affect my view of this university that has done so much for me.



JoePa is only a man. I think we all forget this when we wear our rose colored glasses and drink the Kool-Aid, but he is. He did what he was supposed to do. He followed up with the case after reporting it, but child abuse cases take awhile to move, legendary head football coach or not. His superiors said they were taking care of it and he believed them. I can't say I would have done differently.



Let me repeat-- JoePa is being made a scapegoat by the media because he is the most famous person involved. Period. He has not been charged with anything and I don't think that they have the grounds to try. I stand behind this man until he is charged and convicted of a crime. Otherwise he has my support. He and McQueery did as they should have and trusted the wrong people. It is the other three that should burn for this, not them.




He did act. That is what I'm getting at here. Maybe it seems odd to you that I feel the need to vindicate him on this but believe me I cannot rest until I try. This man is more than a football coach to us-- he's like the grandfather of the university. Several members of my family have met him, people I've known have been friends with him, he represents all that Penn State is to us-- pride, loyalty, honor, and tradition. Do I believe that he did all that he could have done in this situation? Perhaps not everything, and this will haunt him for the rest of his life if it's true. But he did do something. He reported what was told to him. He checked in on the situation. He did what he was supposed to do.

This is a horrible situation to be sure and I pray for every child and family involved. But let us not get into a pitchfork frenzy and forget the facts. The facts are that neither JoePa nor McQueery were charged with anything. As such they cannot be convicted and remain innocent in my eyes. Graham Spanier is being investigated, as are the other three. If they are found to be guilty, I will wash my hands of them. But not of Joe and McQueery. Honestly I think they are being scapegoated and while he may be made to resign, it will not be a reflection on him or his life's work but an administration that protected an unworthy and hugely effed up a lot of lives.

You're as bad as those idiotic students rallying outside of his house. Regardless of legal obligation, it's a moral obligation. He knew something was going on, and continued to allow it to go on. The few people out there that are sharing your mindset disgust me.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by kddani

You're as bad as those idiotic students rallying outside of his house. Regardless of legal obligation, it's a moral obligation. He knew something was going on, and continued to allow it to go on. The few people out there that are sharing your mindset disgust me.

It's more than a few.

[psusue]

Originally Posted by kddani

You're as bad as those idiotic students rallying outside of his house. Regardless of legal obligation, it's a moral obligation. He knew something was going on, and continued to allow it to go on. The few people out there that are sharing your mindset disgust me.

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol. Obviously now that we are sure that these events have went down we are blaming Joe for his inaction, but had he jumped the gun and called the police himself he could have very well been completely wrong in this and ruined another's life unnecessarily. I know no one likes to think about it, but people can and do accuse others falsely about things like child abuse to ruin a career. One false accusation can ruin a person's life and reputation unjustly. He followed the chain of command and it bit him in the ass. I doubt he will sleep soundly ever again knowing how this turned out. But I don't think he knew what people think he knew and I think he acted appropriately with the information he was given. I repeat, he did what he could have and he is being blamed unjustly. He will burn for another's mistake, but I stand by him. If more information comes out I may change my mind. But until then, my mind is made.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by psusue

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol.

To quote KSUViolet, THIS is where you and I are going to have to disagree. You have got to be kidding. That may be the single dumbest thing I've read about this situation.

I hate to Godwin the thread, but damn...Nazis, protocol, following orders over moral obligation...ring any bells?? Sheesh.

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by psusue

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol.

You're completely right. After all, what would have happened if JoePa hadn't followed protocol???

He could have possibly prevented the rape of several more children, BUT Penn State's program would have suffered.

To me, this mindset is what will tarnish Penn State's reputation. Every facebook status I have seen from Penn State Friends had no mark of concern for the children who were harmed: it was about how JoePa was getting a raw deal. That disgusts me more than anything with this situation.

I get that JoePa is a grandfather and that he is the "head" of your Penn State family, which makes this 1,000x more painful. I would cry if this were happening to my alma mater. But, you cannot say that he wasn't wrong. He made a huge mistake in choosing to "only" report it and, unfortunately, he will have to pay in some manner. While I'm sad that this is how his legacy at Penn State will end (especially since he is my favorite Big 10 coach), I am also much more sad that this grandfather figure was capable of such wrong.

[ASTalumna06]

I've been very back-and-forth about all of this and what to think all day. In most cases, I've played devil's advocate in the conversations I've had with others.

My take on everything: I don't know who to blame. A lot of people dropped the ball. My biggest issue with this all coming down on Joe Pa is that this is ALL coming down on Joe Pa.. because of his position, because he's the coach, because he has "more power" than everyone else. People in this thread have even said that this isn't about sports, it's about a pedophile, and that pedophile not being stopped. And sadly, in all of the conversations I had today about this situation, not one person mentioned Sandusky. Not one.

I'm not disgusted by the students supporting Paterno.. instead, I find myself confused. While I won't be the one standing outside his house cheering, I also won't be the one to point the finger at him and place all of the blame on his shoulders. The fact of the matter is, no one knows what he knew, yet people have taken it upon themselves to fill in the blanks - and either support him, or turn their backs on him completely. And that I don't understand.

I might find that I'm stuck in the middle and not knowing which way to turn until the end of my days, and that's ok with me. I made this same argument in the Casey Anthony thread; that I can't comprehend how someone can feel so strongly about something that might not be true... that someone can stand up and cheer when a person is delivered a verdict that they agree with, or get pissed and be outraged over a verdict that goes against what they think. The only person who knows for sure what happened is Paterno, and he's the only one who has to live with the decisions he made.

It just seems crazy to me that the person who seemingly knew the least, is getting the most flak for what happened.

If Paterno leaves, yes, it will be sad.. and that doesn't mean I'm not saddened by what happened to those kids. It means that it's disappointing to know that someone who's had such a large impact on a college community - an impact that most college campuses will never experience or understand - might have to walk away with people shaking their heads in shame.

Just a few short days ago, if you asked me where Paterno would breathe his last breath, I would have told you there was no doubt in my mind that it'd be within those walls of Beaver Stadium. And now... who knows..?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by psusue

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol.

This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Please stop being an apologist to an apologist to a pedophile.

Okay, we all know that Joe Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation according to protocol. But, you know what? Joe Paterno is/was one of the most powerful men in college sports. Had he really wanted to, he could have superseded protocol.

It's not as if this hasn't been done before, by someone with a whole hell of a lot more to lose than a college football coach. A priest went to his superior about a suspected pedophile. When it appeared that the diocese was going to sweep it under the rug, guess who went to the authorities? That's right, the priest. Here's someone who superseded protocol in order to DO WHAT WAS RIGHT. Joe Paterno was too much of a coward to do that.

Also, if he didn't trust this McQueary guy enough to follow up on his concerns in more than a half-assed way, why is dude his assistant? He didn't believe him when he reported being an eyewitness to the rape of a child?

Oh, and this line, from Joe Paterno himself?

"The kids that were victims or whatever they want to say, I think we all ought to say a prayer for them. Tough life, when people do certain things to you."

Victims or whatever. Classy. It is tough when someone rapes you and the people who could help you look the other way for the good of a football team.

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by psusue

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol. Obviously now that we are sure that these events have went down we are blaming Joe for his inaction, but had he jumped the gun and called the police himself he could have very well been completely wrong in this and ruined another's life unnecessarily. I know no one likes to think about it, but people can and do accuse others falsely about things like child abuse to ruin a career. One false accusation can ruin a person's life and reputation unjustly. He followed the chain of command and it bit him in the ass. I doubt he will sleep soundly ever again knowing how this turned out. But I don't think he knew what people think he knew and I think he acted appropriately with the information he was given. I repeat, he did what he could have and he is being blamed unjustly. He will burn for another's mistake, but I stand by him. If more information comes out I may change my mind. But until then, my mind is made.

Somewhere back in the long ago, the setting of protocols probably incorporated doing what was right....in other words, letting morality be a part of your guide.

JoePa is from that old world. Don't tell me he didn't come out of a world that didn't include religiosity. Morals. Values. He grew up being taught better than that. I have to believe that about him. If his upbringing didn't teach him that it was better to risk "ruining" an adult's life in order to save a child's life, then who the rest of the country thought he was has been a sham for a very long time.

Like someone else said, we'll have to disagree on this.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlum

JoePa is from that old world. Don't tell me he didn't come out of a world that didn't include religiosity. Morals. Values. He grew up being taught better than that. I have to believe that about him. If his upbringing didn't teach him that it was better to risk "ruining" an adult's life in order to save a child's life, then who the rest of the country thought he was has been a sham for a very long time.

Like someone else said, we'll have to disagree on this.

He also came from a world where you don't throw someone you have worked with, respected, and trusted for decades under the bus because you heard something second hand, no matter how repulsive that is. One of the top execs at NBC said much the same about OJ Simpson, who was a longtime friend of his.

I agree with psusue...Paterno ISN'T a god...that means he makes really messed up decisions sometimes. This ain't the first, I'm sure it's not the only. Like AzTheta said, you have NO idea how you will react when it happens to you. Put yourself in his shoes and think about what you would do if you heard, second hand, that your best friend of decades was doing this. I doubt very much that all of you would be as gung ho as you say Paterno should have been.

That all being said...my prediction is that we'll hear in 9 months that he's been suffering from Alzheimer's for years (kind of like how they attempted to salvage Reagan's fuckups in his second term).

Also, and I don't know if the Penn Staters will back me, but (and it's hard to get this unless you hear about Penn State on the news every day) I place WAY more blame on Spanier as far as the ball dropping than I do on Paterno.

[33girl]

Yes, but people are calling him out in a bass-ackwards way...like they have also drank the Kool-Aid and can't believe that someone in his position could ever make a mistake to begin with, because you could only get into that position if you were perfect in every way.

That's how I'm reading it, YMMV.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What is this Kool Aid that you and psusue are talking about? Did you two also drink Kool Aid to make you have the opinions that you have?

You are reading it incorrectly. No one with a grain of brain believes that any human cannot make mistakes. No one with a grain of brain believes that any human is perfect. Again, you are admitting that it was a mistake. JoePa admits it was a mistake. We all agree so what is the point of contention?

But people have been reacting as though Paterno should never have made a mistake.. Ever. You don't know how many texts and Facebook messages I've received in the last few days with people saying things like, "I thought Paterno was all about honor and integrity," and, "Too bad your football coach doesn't practice what he preaches.". The fact of the matter is, he made a mistake that he may not even have recognized as a mistake until a few days ago, because that's when he actually learned of the severity of the incident.

For some, Paterno going to his superior instead of the police is the only thing that defines him. THAT is what's ridiculous.. Especially because no one seems to know all the facts (except, of course, Paterno).

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What is this Kool Aid that you and psusue are talking about? Did you two also drink Kool Aid to make you have the opinions that you have?

They serve that Kool-Aid at the monthly Black people meetings too.

But seriously, when do they start investigating The Second Mile? According to a statement on their website, they claim that they were notified of the first investigation (where Sandusky was cleared of wrongdoing). Then, when he came to them in 2008 regarding the grand jury investigation, they kept him away from their activities involving kids. I'm sure they're playing a game of CYA as well, but I hope that as soon as the dust clears involving PSU that The Second Mile is thoroughly investigated.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by psusue

Everyone keeps talking about a moral obligation, but a moral obligation cannot supersede protocol. Obviously now that we are sure that these events have went down we are blaming Joe for his inaction, but had he jumped the gun and called the police himself he could have very well been completely wrong in this and ruined another's life unnecessarily. I know no one likes to think about it, but people can and do accuse others falsely about things like child abuse to ruin a career. One false accusation can ruin a person's life and reputation unjustly. He followed the chain of command and it bit him in the ass. I doubt he will sleep soundly ever again knowing how this turned out. But I don't think he knew what people think he knew and I think he acted appropriately with the information he was given. I repeat, he did what he could have and he is being blamed unjustly. He will burn for another's mistake, but I stand by him. If more information comes out I may change my mind. But until then, my mind is made.

The failure to report it to someone outside of the Happy Valley chain of command (which is BS because everyone knows Joe is no. 1), isn't even my biggest beef. JoePa ALLOWED THIS MAN TO REMAIN AFFILIATED WITH HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM. Even past retirement. This man continued to use the facilities and the program to continue his disgusting hobby. Sandusky was on campus as recently as last week (or the week before, can't remember exactly which).

Your blind faith towards a sports figurehead is exactly the mentality that allowed this kind of crap to happen in relation to this program for years.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by psusue

While I understand that you mean that JoePa's resignation is not as sad as what happened to these children, it is still sad. And I think that it is also unwarranted; JoePa is not to blame here. Sandusky, Curley, and and Schultz are. McQueery and JoePa did what they were supposed to do-- which is to follow the chain of command.



Thank you. Every conversation I've overheard today is about this topic. I've talked about it in most classes. This school's heart is breaking for the families of this tragedy and how our administration is making a mess of it. PSU is more than a university-- it's a family. When something like this happens to one of us, it happens to all of us. But I cannot let the actions of a disgusting few affect my view of this university that has done so much for me.



JoePa is only a man. I think we all forget this when we wear our rose colored glasses and drink the Kool-Aid, but he is. He did what he was supposed to do. He followed up with the case after reporting it, but child abuse cases take awhile to move, legendary head football coach or not. His superiors said they were taking care of it and he believed them. I can't say I would have done differently.



Let me repeat-- JoePa is being made a scapegoat by the media because he is the most famous person involved. Period. He has not been charged with anything and I don't think that they have the grounds to try. I stand behind this man until he is charged and convicted of a crime. Otherwise he has my support. He and McQueery did as they should have and trusted the wrong people. It is the other three that should burn for this, not them.




He did act. That is what I'm getting at here. Maybe it seems odd to you that I feel the need to vindicate him on this but believe me I cannot rest until I try. This man is more than a football coach to us-- he's like the grandfather of the university. Several members of my family have met him, people I've known have been friends with him, he represents all that Penn State is to us-- pride, loyalty, honor, and tradition. Do I believe that he did all that he could have done in this situation? Perhaps not everything, and this will haunt him for the rest of his life if it's true. But he did do something. He reported what was told to him. He checked in on the situation. He did what he was supposed to do.

This is a horrible situation to be sure and I pray for every child and family involved. But let us not get into a pitchfork frenzy and forget the facts. The facts are that neither JoePa nor McQueery were charged with anything. As such they cannot be convicted and remain innocent in my eyes. Graham Spanier is being investigated, as are the other three. If they are found to be guilty, I will wash my hands of them. But not of Joe and McQueery. Honestly I think they are being scapegoated and while he may be made to resign, it will not be a reflection on him or his life's work but an administration that protected an unworthy and hugely effed up a lot of lives.

I think this is where you and I are going to have to disagree.