I Am Not a Costume!

[AOII Angel]

I'm not sure why dressing up as President Obama would be automatically offensive. Presidential Halloween masks have been sold for decades. They've also predicted outcomes of elections based on sales of candidate masks. The fact that President Obama is black should not make wearing his mask offensive. Now, I would agree with you if someone dressed in a suit and put on blackface with a sign that said "Obama" otherwise, why is it offensive?

[christiangirl]

^^^It doesn't necessarily, which is why I put "offensive" in quotation marks. I just couldn't think of another word to describe a non-Black girl in a suit wearing a dark brown Obama mask (which was pretty caricature-ish with unflattering, embellished features and much darker than his actual skin tone). I guess the mask making him appear darker with a larger nose, lips, and ears than he actually has makes him look silly rather than honoring or accurately imitating the president. I think that's where the "offense" comes in, though no one was personally offended, if that makes sense.

ETA: By all means, all "president" masks I've seen were cartoony. But given this particular president is Black and the embellished features characteristically Black features, it puts a slightly different spin on things.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by ElieM

SWTXBelle, I'm pretty sure that's exactly how my Dutch father described it

I use this as an example for my classes as to how cultural customs which make perfect sense to those who grow up with them might appear odd/strange/weird to those who do not. I also love David Sedaris past reason. His delivery of this reading from his book always makes me laugh until I hurt.

[*winter*]

I wouldn't call a woman a slut for wearing a hooker-inspired Halloween costume. I do feel some of them go above and beyond what is appropriate, but if they aren't showing it at the local Trick or Treat, it's their life...

Apologize fore the hijack...The bigger issue to me is, when did everyone start idolizing hookers and strippers? Most of these girls may not BE a H/S but in the end, that's what the costume looks like. 364 days of the year you are someone else, and the ONE DAY, as a modern, multi-dimensional, educated woman she can be ANYTHING else...it has to be a sex worker? I don't understand the entire glamorization of the sex industry in modern culture. Being a pimp is "awesome" and there's a whole You Go Girl! attitude towards strippers and even porn stars. The reality is the industry is a web of despair, empty lives, drug use, alcoholism and jail terms. Plus in a world where sexual slavery is a reality (and the girls get younger every year) it's just that much more asanine, this adoration/acceptance of the sex industry. We have Miley Cyrus on a pole on the Disney Channel, and her sister looked like an escort in that "costume" she had in photos, and what is she- 9? It introduces children- babies!- to the idea that looking really sexy- pleather stripper boots, netted stockings- is something to aspire to- when they don't even know what "really sexy" truly means.

The thing with the President- I don't know. He is such a hugely controversial person (IMO, through no fault of his own) that I couldn't imagine going out dressed as him, I rarely even bring him up in conversation because I want to shoot myself if the other person starts on some Nobama rant (and that's common around here, unfortunately.) He is being attacked on a level that is really unparalleled in political history, for personal, political, heck- they even went after his wife for not being "thin enough" to promote Let's Move! So on the basis of that, and the fact that many of the "attackers" are closeted racists, an Obama costume doesn't really hold the same appeal as a Clinton mask.

Oh...and how could I forget...a SUICIDE BOMBER? That's a Halloween costume? Point proven- Halloween has become more about being a tacky mother effer than being a holiday for fun. That's got to be so comforting for our returning vets to see, especially those who were involved in IED explosions where people were injured or even killed. I hope anyone who wears such a costume has the opportunity to meet up with some of our veterans and hear their side of the story on why it's inappropriate. They might be eating some concrete while it's being explained to them though!

[Tulip86]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I find it problematic to depict someone of the African Diaspora as a servant or freed slave who "chose to serve" (LOL) anyone. You have Europeans running around in blackface and, as with many people in the United States of America, many of these Europeans have no real interactions with people of the African Diaspora. Zwarte Piet is all there is.

I take it you've lived in The Netherlands and are well versed in the culture since you make a statement about how things are here?

As I currently live in The Netherlands I thought I'd chime in on the issue.

All children in the Netherlands(of the age that don't believe in "Santa" anymore) are encouraged to join in the debate on how Zwarte Piet isn't appropriate. (and it isn't appropriate, and they know)

There have been many, many debates on how to handle the situation, but they can't just abolish this custom overnight since Zwarte Piet is more popular among the kids than Sinterklaas. The government is taking steps though to eliminate the custom, but they can't just change this overnight. There is a task force (consisting op people from all cultures represented in the country) working on this issue.

Zwarte Piet was decades ago depicted as a lazy and mean but as the Netherlands became more integrated and the old colonial stereotypes were eradicated he became the good spirited and intelligent character he is now.

Is it wrong that white men are walking around in blackface and red lips to depict a man of (west) African heritage? Yes, that is so wrong. But there is awareness here, and it isn't done to insult and make fun of a culture.


For future reference, please don't refer to ONE culture in Europe as "Europeans" because European means anyone and everyone from Norway to Spain, and Ireland to the Ukraine and Turkey. That's people in all colors/shapes and sizes.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Tulip86

I take it you've lived in The Netherlands and are well versed in the culture since you make a statement about how things are here?

It is wonderful that you are excited that you actually live in The Netherlands or something....

Originally Posted by Tulip86

All children in the Netherlands(of the age that don't believe in "Santa" anymore) are encouraged to join in the debate on how Zwarte Piet isn't appropriate. (and it isn't appropriate, and they know)

There have been many, many debates on how to handle the situation, but they can't just abolish this custom overnight since Zwarte Piet is more popular among the kids than Sinterklaas. The government is taking steps though to eliminate the custom, but they can't just change this overnight. There is a task force (consisting op people from all cultures represented in the country) working on this issue.

Zwarte Piet was decades ago depicted as a lazy and mean but as the Netherlands became more integrated and the old colonial stereotypes were eradicated he became the good spirited and intelligent character he is now.

Is it wrong that white men are walking around in blackface and red lips to depict a man of (west) African heritage? Yes, that is so wrong. But there is awareness here, and it isn't done to insult and make fun of a culture.

...but nothing, I mean nothing, you said in this post refuted anything I said.

It is fine if you wanted to give us an update but do not confuse that with refuting what I said.

Originally Posted by Tulip86

For future reference, please don't refer to ONE culture in Europe as "Europeans" because European means anyone and everyone from Norway to Spain, and Ireland to the Ukraine and Turkey. That's people in all colors/shapes and sizes.

You noticed that too? I also noticed that and did not even need to live in Europe to make a statement about how things are there. This subtopic is not only about The Netherlands and Zwarte Piet's impact is not exclusive to The Netherlands. That is considered part of European folklore.

As an aside, I had forgotten about the book Black People in European Folklore: Golliwog, Zwarte Piet, Black Arab (2010) and I think I will see if I can find a copy somewhere.

[AlphaFrog]

^^^Does it mention Monastatos from Die Zaüberflote (The Magic Flute)? He is a Moor and pretty much has a line about Pamina hatin' on him because he's black. When we did the opera in college, the actor was white, so they made him Zebra-striped rather than black face and changed the line to match. I couldn't say whether that is standard practice, however there are probably multiple common solutions due to a severe shortage of males in general and black males in spesific in opera companies.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

^^^Does it mention Monastatos from Die Zaüberflote (The Magic Flute)? He is a Moor and pretty much has a line about Pamina hatin' on him because he's black. When we did the opera in college, the actor was white, so they made him Zebra-striped rather than black face and changed the line to match. I couldn't say whether that is standard practice, however there are probably multiple common solutions due to a severe shortage of males in general and black males in spesific in opera companies.

The book will probably not include Monostatos.

Here is the overview of that book from Barnes&Noble:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/blac...027797#Details

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

*Wearing a short skirt or a low-cut top/body suit does not (alone) make a woman a slut. I don't think it's the best choice in clothing but hey some women like showing their sexual side or showing off parts of their body of which they are proud. I'm beginning to wonder if calling them slutty for that is part of the reason many women are comfortable doing that only on a day when they aren't supposed to be themselves.

I just wish that wasn't the ONLY choice out there. I tend to have to work really hard to find something that's not slut-o-rama...even something as simple as "Greek Goddess" sometimes only has short costumes at the stores. I end up making my costumes or having them made because I just don't like dressing up like that.

But, then again, I might be the only person who really doesn't like Halloween for adults. If it's not for kids or charities, I could care less, LOL. I attended a charity Halloween party last weekend and that, along with passing out candy tonight, will be the extent of my celebrations

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by *winter*

but if they aren't showing it at the local Trick or Treat, it's their life...

iLaughed

Originally Posted by *winter*

Apologize fore the hijack...The bigger issue to me is, when did everyone start idolizing hookers and strippers? Most of these girls may not BE a H/S but in the end, that's what the costume looks like. 364 days of the year you are someone else, and the ONE DAY, as a modern, multi-dimensional, educated woman she can be ANYTHING else...it has to be a sex worker?

Hmmm...I know I can't construct a post that can be generalized enough to cover every facet of this but I'll give my hypothesis (based on my very limited experience with sexy Halloween costumes).

IMO there's nothing wrong with a woman highlighting her cleavage, her legs, her butt, etc. but our society tends to label that as dressing slutty. "If you're advertising, you must be selling" as they say. However, a LOT of women would love to show off the sexual side of themselves from time to time, but don't feel comfortable because of the negative labels that would get thrown out there. So they do it on the one day of the year when they aren't supposed to be themselves--"Call me what you want, this isn't me anyway. It's just a costume." Do many women take this way too far? Well, it depends on how far you think is too far. For some, the low-cut top was too far, but others wouldn't stop till she's wearing just a bra and tights (saw that costume on Friday).

Now, for glorifying the sex industry...I don't think so. I think that feeling of being able to freely express and explore sexuality is something a lot of women really envy (and if a man sees her dressing in a mini-skirt, cat suit, or whatever else he's fantasizing, he's not gonna stop her). There's a certain freedom and empowerment in being confident in one's sex appeal. It just so happens that the ones who are super overt in their sex appeal tend to be those who capitalize on sex appeal--sex workers are the most obvious example. But I don't think it's the entire sex industry that is intentionally glamorized--no one wants to be the cracked out hooker who got beat down by her pimp. People are glorifying the confidence piece which lends to pretending the entire sex industry is cool. On a lower level, it's like trying to hook people onto smoking--if you focus on the rough and tumble cowboy who rides on his horse all day and chills out at the saloon, you overlook the emphysema and lung cancer he might develop later. The whole picture isn't okay but you'll accept the whole picture in order to live out the good stuff.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I just wish that wasn't the ONLY choice out there. I tend to have to work really hard to find something that's not slut-o-rama...even something as simple as "Greek Goddess" sometimes only has short costumes at the stores. I end up making my costumes or having them made because I just don't like dressing up like that.

I think that the corporations who make the costumes noticed the trend of women who like to be a little racier on Halloween and ran with it. "Hey look, there's money to be made here!" So "sexy" costumes totally inundated the costume shops and the outfits got more and more outrageous until the present, when it's hard to find a costume that doesn't have all your privacy hanging out. A liberating adjustment to the norm swung all the way to the other extreme which is equally annoying.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

*Wearing a short skirt or a low-cut top/body suit does not (alone) make a woman a slut. I don't think it's the best choice in clothing but hey some women like showing their sexual side or showing off parts of their body of which they are proud. I'm beginning to wonder if calling them slutty for that is part of the reason many women are comfortable doing that only on a day when they aren't supposed to be themselves.
/hijack

Look, I'm proud of my boobs, and while I think my ass could be slightly better than it is, I think it's pretty damn hot, especially in a cute pair of jeans. But I'm not going to show everything off to the world. I like the idea that when a guy talks to me, it's not because my chest is difficult to stop staring at, or because he thinks he can easily feel me up in the elevator.

I like being someone else on Halloween, but that someone else isn't Little Bo Peep, the town whore.

Originally Posted by *winter*

It introduces children- babies!- to the idea that looking really sexy- pleather stripper boots, netted stockings- is something to aspire to- when they don't even know what "really sexy" truly means.

This! The problem is what we're teaching to everyone as being "truly sexy".. and truly sexy doesn't = mini skirts and boobs falling out of your shirt

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I just wish that wasn't the ONLY choice out there. I tend to have to work really hard to find something that's not slut-o-rama...even something as simple as "Greek Goddess" sometimes only has short costumes at the stores. I end up making my costumes or having them made because I just don't like dressing up like that.

!!!!! to the bolded. I think only once or twice in my life have I bought a costume... my parents bought me a Little Mermaid costume when I was younger, and I bought one in college. Other than that, I always make my costumes. I'm very creative, so I always enjoy coming up with something that other people will enjoy (because of the humor of it!)

I remember my favorite costume on someone else was a guy (who was kind of a dork) who walked into a party with ribbons and bows all over him, and he had a big tag around his neck which read,

To: Women
From: God

When I asked him what he was, he said, "God's gift to women!"

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ElieM

For not sexy costumes - http://takebackhalloween.org/

For maximum authenticity w/ the Jean Harlow costume, be sure to run ice over your nipples and skip the underwear. Not so non-slutty, is it? That being said, being Queen Boudicca would be pretty badass.

I really really want to go as Little Edie Bouvier from Grey Gardens, but I need to find a Halloween party full of gay men.

Originally Posted by christiangirl

^^^It doesn't necessarily, which is why I put "offensive" in quotation marks. I just couldn't think of another word to describe a non-Black girl in a suit wearing a dark brown Obama mask (which was pretty caricature-ish with unflattering, embellished features and much darker than his actual skin tone). I guess the mask making him appear darker with a larger nose, lips, and ears than he actually has makes him look silly rather than honoring or accurately imitating the president. I think that's where the "offense" comes in, though no one was personally offended, if that makes sense.

ETA: By all means, all "president" masks I've seen were cartoony. But given this particular president is Black and the embellished features characteristically Black features, it puts a slightly different spin on things.

Some president masks are more cartoony than others. The Nixon ones are WAY worse than any Kennedy mask I've seen...i.e. Kennedy's is actually not bad looking, Nixon's make him look downright monstrous.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Look, I'm proud of my boobs, and while I think my ass could be slightly better than it is, I think it's pretty damn hot, especially in a cute pair of jeans. But I'm not going to show everything off to the world. I like the idea that when a guy talks to me, it's not because my chest is difficult to stop staring at, or because he thinks he can easily feel me up in the elevator.

Things that just crossed my mind?
1. Why does showing pride in your boobs have to automatically equal showing everything to the world? There's nothing in the middle (whether women choose to hit the middle or swing a wide left is another thing)? Would a man not try to get a peek at your boobs if you were wearing a blazer or turtleneck?

2. Why would he assume he can feel you up just because your shirt fits a certain way? When did a neckline become an invitation in this world?

I don't expect an answer to these questions nor am I trying to argue a point. These are just what pop into my mind when I read things like that. These are pretty common assumptions and this thread has gotten me wondering how on earth they got started.

Oh and 3: Phil, I totally stole your thread.

[DrPhil]

This thread belongs to the GC Universe. Enjoy it.

[southernbelle14]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Things that just crossed my mind?
1. Why does showing pride in your boobs have to automatically equal showing everything to the world? There's nothing in the middle (whether women choose to hit the middle or swing a wide left is another thing)? Would a man not try to get a peek at your boobs if you were wearing a blazer or turtleneck?

2. Why would he assume he can feel you up just because your shirt fits a certain way? When did a neckline become an invitation in this world?

I don't expect an answer to these questions nor am I trying to argue a point. These are just what pop into my mind when I read things like that. These are pretty common assumptions and this thread has gotten me wondering how on earth they got started.

Oh and 3: Phil, I totally stole your thread.

I agree with everything you've said on this topic.