The Confederate Flag

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

To put a positive spin on why the south wanted to separate and why 130 years later people want to celebrate that I think is a bogus excuse. Going back to the ever-dreaded nazi comparison, the reason they needed to get rid of the Jews was because they were killing the economy. That was part of their thinking... everything that was wrong with Germany was the Jews' fault. So you can say the Swastika represents Germany's economic rebirth if you want. It still means 6 million dead to me. And the rebel flag to me represents a long and abiding dislike of personal freedom of all kinds, hate in it's most uneducated, head in the sand form.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

Thank you! I learned something new today.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Thank you! I learned something new today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag



****
The most interesting thing about these types of discussions has been said before, which is that slavery, discrimination, and other forms of social exclusion were (and still are) not relegated to the south, a particular flag, or to a particular political party.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag

Yeah, I went to that site to find out more information.

The way EW said what he said piqued my curiosity so I decided to look it up.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

The legal importation of slaves into the United States of America was banned January 1, 1808 (voted on in 1807), it is found in this little known document called The Constitution, in the same section as some habeas corpus nonsense. People got kind of nervous after the French had some issues in Haiti, Britain had also banned the Atlantic Slave Trade in 1807, but still had slavery until 1834 (Act was in 1833) excluding anything owned/run by the East India Company and what is now Sri Lanka. Spain abolished slavery in 1811, except in Cuba, the now Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico, which didn't happen until the 1880s or during and after the Civil War.


The real importation of slaves didn't stop until later, with the last known ship smuggling people in being the Clotilde in 1859 that brought slaves from Africa to Mobile, Alabama. http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/july05/ Slaves were still brought in through New Orleans and Texas (Jean Lafitte) and with both Spain and France still allowing their colonies in the New World to have slavery it is not impossible to believe that people were smuggled between 1808 and 1859. To move those who were born in country when all slave states were concentrated in the Southern part of the United States boats were often used and it wouldn't be unimaginable that people were picked up along the way to a larger port like New Orleans

What I find more interesting about your Bonnie Blue is you associate it with Texas, but the areas it originally represented in 1810 didn't include Texas. I also find it amusing the guy who wrote the song associated with the flag was Irish born and I can't readily find much information about him, which is odd for something so important in relation to this flag controversy.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

What I find more interesting about your Bonnie Blue is you associate it with Texas, but the areas it originally represented in 1810 didn't include Texas.

The Republic of West Florida represents!

Speaking of West Florida, Pensacola, Florida calls itself "The City of Five Flags," representing the five countries that it belonged to at one point: Spain, France, Britain, USA, and the CSA. For as long as I can remember, the Confederate battle flag was used. About 10 or so years ago, a movement started to remove the Battle Flag and replace it with the Stars and Bars. It's funny to me because it represents the exact same thing but for those who don't know better, it's a completely different flag and doesn't carry that baggage.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

This is such a strange argument. No one has denied that here. Slavery was absolutely a problem of all states at the time of the Revolution. It was a North and South problem. Northerners participated in the slave trade. They owned slaves. They purchased cotton grown by slaves to use in the Northern cotton mills. However, he Northern states outlawed slavery before the war, though, and the South seceded to maintain the institution.

Who did what when is a pointless argument. I don't care what your ancestors did. Some of mine owned slaves and fought for the Confederacy. I don't honor them for that. I also don't feel guilty about it. I didn't do it. I wasn't there. I fully admit that they were wrong. The past is the past. We can't change it. We can change our own conduct now, though.

Some days I think there is nothing wrong with the South, except a stubborn refusal to quit arguing that the Civil War was justified and their great-great-great-great-whatever did not make a colossal mistake by engaging in treason against the USA.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Some days I think there is nothing wrong with the South, except a stubborn refusal to quit arguing that the Civil War was justified and their great-great-great-great-whatever did not make a colossal mistake by engaging in treason against the USA.

The USA engaged in treason against Great Britain. Just saying is all.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The USA engaged in treason against Great Britain. Just saying is all.

Which would matter if we were still a British colony.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Which would matter if we were still a British colony.

It matters even though we're not a British colony. Dismissing the Civil War as a bunch of people committing treason against the USA fails to deal honestly with history. We have two instances of mass treason in our history: One we praise and one we condemn. And like much of history, it doesn't necessarily lend itself to neat and tidy answers.

The fact that Americans today generally think the American Revolution was a good thing doesn't change the fact that it was treason. It's just treason the Americans got away with.

The fact that Americans today generally think that the Confederacy was a bad thing doesn't change that fact that many who participated in it and supported it saw themselves as continuing in the steps and spirit of the American Revolution, which is supposed to have been a good thing.

I'm not defending the Confederacy at all, but there's a little irony in condemning the Confederacy for treason against a country itself born in treason.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The fact that Americans today generally think the American Revolution was a good thing doesn't change the fact that it was treason. It's just treason the Americans got away with.

Yep, exactly. It doesn't stop being treason just because we won (twice).

Believe me, Great Britain really had to tuck up their balls when we bailed them out of WWII. I sometimes think they would have rather Spain did it.

And then there's the cultural back & forth that is semi friendly but not so much...but that's another topic.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by KDCat

This is such a strange argument. No one has denied that here. Slavery was absolutely a problem of all states at the time of the Revolution. It was a North and South problem. Northerners participated in the slave trade. great-great-whatever.

The point is that seeing the Confederate flag as a hateful symbol is silly. The Confederacy existed for four years, did not import slaves, whereas the American flag stands for years and years of oppression, imported slaves, and created Jim Crow.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

The point is that seeing the Confederate flag as a hateful symbol is silly.

This claim is silly. And stupid. And ignorant.

While some people legitimately may not personally associate "the Confederate flag" with racism (and anyone with your location -- "Occupied Territory CSA" -- should know better than to speak of "the" Confederate flag), only a dolt would deny that it carries racist connotations for many, many people. True, the Confederacy may only have been around for 4 years, but in the years that followed the Klan and other white supremacist groups pretty much cemented the relationship between some Confederate flags and racism. Ditto any Southern legislature that added the Battle Flag to its state flag in the aftermath of Brown v. Board of Education.

Why don't you just go back to dissing shanes and making inconsistent claims about your fraternity membership?