The Confederate Flag

[Low C Sharp]

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

That's right. If I speak some foreign language where the phrase "White Supremacy" means "Love and rainbows," and I put a "White Supremacy" sign in front of my house in an English-speaking country, I have nothing to complain about when people think I'm advocating racial hatred. But that's not what I meant! To me, it means love and rainbows! Well, so what? My neighbors speak English, they can read the sign, and those words mean something to them. If I don't want people to think I'm a white supremacist, I shouldn't say so in their local language. "White Supremacy" can still have a totally different meaning to me in my own home.

The fact is, a lot of people in this country, for very good reason, see words on that flag along the lines of "White Supremacy" or even "Die N***** Die." That's because it has been used to communicate those messages to tremendous effect for decades. If that's not the message you want to express, just use a different Confederate flag.

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question.

Honest answer: I believe that those who are not racist are either: 1. ignorant of the Southern history they supposedly honor, or 2. they know that the flag was used to terrorize fellow Americans, but they choose not to think about whether that part of its history has any relevance today.

Here's my honest question: is there any non-racist message that this flag expresses that cannot be expressed using a different Confederate flag? Why don't people use the other ones instead?

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Here's my honest question: is there any non-racist message that this flag expresses that cannot be expressed using a different Confederate flag? Why don't people use the other ones instead?

Truth of the matter is that a lot of the rednecks out there are actually really humble, gentle people. I have a lot of rednecks in my family lol. But yeah, there are other ways to express Southern pride; I have the flag of the state of Florida up in my room. I bought it when I moved to Virginia and missed the real south lol. But say I grew up in Alabama and bought their state flag to hang in my dorm. That might almost be just as bad lol. Someone might be offended that I'm proud to be from Alabama. Idk.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Truth of the matter is that a lot of the rednecks out there are actually really humble, gentle people. I have a lot of rednecks in my family lol. But yeah, there are other ways to express Southern pride; I have the flag of the state of Florida up in my room. I bought it when I moved to Virginia and missed the real south lol. But say I grew up in Alabama and bought their state flag to hang in my dorm. That might almost be just as bad lol. Someone might be offended that I'm proud to be from Alabama. Idk.

LOL, I have NEVER heard Florida called "the real south."

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

LOL, I have NEVER heard Florida called "the real south."

I was thinking the same thing!

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I was thinking the same thing!

I'm from northern Florida. Trust me, it's the real south. Southern Florida.... ugh don't get me started

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

The whole Civil War thing is a red herring. The problem with the battle flag has little to do with the Confederacy. The battle flag was adopted as a symbol of racial intimidation by the Klan and its sympathizers in the twentieth century. It was successfully used to place millions of Americans in a state of terror in their own homes. You can't erase that history from that flag. It's ruined. It's poisoned. Pick a different Confederate symbol to fly -- there are lots to choose from that never flew at lynchings and segregationist rallies.

Absolutely. The meaning has changed to such an extent that, as you say, the flag itself is ruined. Regardless of what white people say, it is no longer simply a symbol of southern heritage. It is a symbol of power, privilege and modern-day rebellion.

Originally Posted by KDCat

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

In this case, it is effectively communicating exactly what the flag owners intend, no matter how fervently they try to redirect attention.

The question is why fly the flag? You have to go deeper than the initial responses...southern heritage, pride, connection to ancestors...

Why fly the flag when they know it has lost its original symbolism? Because they can.

Dig deeper...why do they feel they can do something so blatantly offensive and not be bothered by it? The answer to this question is the bottom line.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

LOL, I have NEVER heard Florida called "the real south."

I take it you've never been to the Florida Panhandle.

I'm actually pretty desensitized to that specific Confederate flag. That doesn't mean I like to see it, but I don't get all up in arms when I do. Fortunately, I don't see it that often in my neck of the woods.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm actually pretty desensitized to that specific Confederate flag. That doesn't mean I like to see it, but I don't get all up in arms when I do.

Ditto.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I take it you've never been to the Florida Panhandle.

I'm actually pretty desensitized to that specific Confederate flag. That doesn't mean I like to see it, but I don't get all up in arms when I do. Fortunately, I don't see it that often in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, I have, but if you ask anyone in the South, they'll all say Florida is in the South, but it's not southern.

[honeychile]

Sign that you spend much too much time on GC: coming home from work, I saw a bumper sticker that had the battle flag on it with "Heritage, not Hate". I immediately realized that I had to share it with y'all!

[Low C Sharp]

To me, "The South won the peace" means that the majority-Northern federal government was willing to give the South near-complete autonomy in racial matters rather than enforcing the 14th and 15th Amendments (there or anywhere) following the end of Reconstruction. The South had another 90 years to largely go its own way before the federal government started enforcing those amendments in the early 1960s -- which is why Civil War rhetoric and imagery were so popular among segregationists at that time.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

To me, "The South won the peace" means that the majority-Northern federal government was willing to give the South near-complete autonomy in racial matters rather than enforcing the 14th and 15th Amendments (there or anywhere) following the end of Reconstruction. The South had another 90 years to largely go its own way before the federal government started enforcing those amendments in the early 1960s -- which is why Civil War rhetoric and imagery were so popular among segregationists at that time.

I suppose I really had Reconstruction in mind when I first read the "won the peace" deal. Because I'm pretty sure from my study of history that Reconstruction really sucked for everyone. From post-Reconstruction up to the Civil Rights era, yes, the states were left to do what they wanted on racial matters.

I consider 1865 - 1965 rough times in the South, black or white. (I realize the economy is a separate issue, but so much of the race issue in the South was tied to the economy that you can't always separate it out.) There were more have nots than haves in those days no matter what the heritage might be. So, yes, the whites in the South were free to create untenable laws (Jim Crow, I'm looking at you), but I don't consider that winning the peace. I think it was more of a "holy-shit-we're-tired-of-dealing-with-this" from the northern states rather than any kind of southern victory. For too long, the attitude among poorer whites was (wrongly), "well, I may be poor, but at least I'm not a N*&^%." Logic would tell a person that such an attitude and a dollar will buy you a coke.

Also, I completely 100% cosign this:

Honest answer: I believe that those who are not racist are either: 1. ignorant of the Southern history they supposedly honor, or 2. they know that the flag was used to terrorize fellow Americans, but they choose not to think about whether that part of its history has any relevance today.

With either option, the end result is ignorance.

I am writing as a person who used to idealize the South, and then I studied it. As a child, I thought it was all about getting to wear pretty dresses and flirt with suitors. (Thanks, Hollywood!) The more I studied Southern culture, the more I saw that turned my stomach. Read up on the slave trade, tour a plantation and include the slave quarters, read testimonials about life as a slave, read accounts of life as a sharecropper, and then tell me how wonderful it all was.

There are ideals that I still revere: gentility, hospitality, grace, and charity, but when those ideals are gained on the backs of suffering humans, then the price is too high.

I realize that I can't experience what my Black friends have lived through (because, yes, some of my very best friends are Black ), and I can never truly understand it. I can have great empathy for the experience. I can choose to respect the challenges they face that I will never encounter as a white person. I can open my eyes and acknowledge just because I haven't experienced something that it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[Low C Sharp]

And as usual, Senusret I manages to sum up in one sentence what we lesser writers struggled to express in 50.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

And as usual, Senusret I manages to sum up in one sentence what we lesser writers struggled to express in 50.

If that's what some of you were trying to say. It isn't the crux of this discussion and the Confederate Flag is the least interesting part of this thread.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

And as usual, Senusret I manages to sum up in one sentence what we lesser writers struggled to express in 50.

For the record, I agreed with everything you said and can't really see how it could be refuted, but that's just me.