The Confederate Flag

[thetaj]

Originally Posted by steveg

Isn't it true that there will always be racisim?

Hey, back when the Italians, Irish, Germansand Jews were werew int the same boat?

This country is a mish mash of people, right?

But times are changing. Just look at greek web sites!

Again, history was and is there, you cannot change it, so quit trying.

The South isn't trying to rise again. If you think that's why people fly the rebel flag, then you're dumb.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

As for the question, would someone rip it down in a Northern black neighborhood? I'm willing to bet yes. People up north rip down signs for the "other guy" in politics, they rip down and/or TP signs for the rival sports team...I'm not saying I agree but I can see that haopening. Heck, immured enough to go hang one inthe neighboring town, on an abandoned house, and see how long it lasts...

It depends on the context just like it does in the south.

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country. That is the case regardless of how many people claim they don't see it happening in their own background and how badass people pretend to be about whooping someone's ass or tearing down flags. People in every region (that includes the billy badass northerners) see things they disagree with everyday and have to learn how to ignore things that offend them everyday. Whooptywooooo.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country.

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

Precisely although the overt and covert were always combined.

I am in the school of thought that the in-your-face only existed to reinforce and solidify the institutional. The best way to persistently exclude groups of people is to identify and target them, label them, and mistreat them so they will be socialized as the power minority. The economic backdrop of slavery (across societies) and servitude targeted groups of people who were easily identified as "the other." The system and structure were already being mobilized. Now they just needed to make the people believe it all--get the individual-level dynamics. That's how you can still have people (nationally and internationally) who are still lost in the sauce centuries later.

[*winter*]

No one is saying northern racism isn't an issue. Obviously it is, since the educational disparities between minorities here are astounding in some places. Our cities are a disgrace- we are home to places where blacks have higher unemployment rates then they did pre civil rights movement. Also not saying that rippig down a flag in any way changes those disparities...

I'm willing to bet that a white person would not have the (insert word here) to fly that flag in a predominantly black neighborhood.

I'm also willing to bet if you hung that in the "black" neighborhods in Camden or Philly it would be an issue, and people in the neighborhood (assuming black people- since we are speaking of the incident taking place in an all black neighborhood) would be very vocal in letting you know that they are offended. It's not necessarily appropriate, it will never make sense to southerners, and it doesn't make them the next Rosa Parks, but there is something to be said for standing up for what you believe in.

[agzg]

Whoa, it's been a while since Tom paid a visit.

[BluPhire]

I guess the confederate flag is proof that history isn't always written by the Victor.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I guess the confederate flag is proof that history isn't always written by the Victor.

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by KDCat

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

Really though.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by KDCat

The North won the war, but the South won the peace.

What does that mean? Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't get it. (and I've understood just about everything in this thread up until now).

[DrPhil]

LOL. I love this thread. Thanks, GC.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

What does that mean? Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't get it. (and I've understood just about everything in this thread up until now).

There was a propaganda effort by the defeated South after the end of the Civil War. It emphasized the noble, ideological reasons for the war ("State's rights") and downplayed the role of slavery. It also made heroes out of people who should have been hung as war criminals. (Nathan Bedford Forrest, I'm lookin' at you.) That propaganda has a tremendous amount of influence on the way the narrative about the war is constructed today.

[thetaj]

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

I guess I shouldn't answer since I'm not in the North.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question.

The overwhelming majority clearly stated that this feeling happened when people in the NORTH fly the "stars 'n bars." The symbolism is different, particularly when those folks have no (lineage or direct) connection to the south.

Or, to flip it - do people in the South honestly believe that people from the North should associate the rebel flag with something other than racism/slavery/abasement of non-whites? Because that's essentially the same question.