Freedom of Religion or Freedom From Religion

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Also, can you point to some examples of how the government regularly supports Christianity?

Prayer in schools, town christmas displays or events (although really it's mostly a secular celebration of christmas) and so on. Mostly though it's distinctive in its lack of inclusivity. Prayer in schools is always Christian prayer, it is always a town Christmas celebration, not Eid, and so on. That's just the briefest bit on a local level. I really don't see why public funds should go to any of it.

Not necessarily lawsuit worthy UNLESS other groups have tried to gain equal time/space and been rejected, IMO. But either way I think it's inappropriate. Oh and we could discuss the conservative christian culture in the military, particularly in the academies, or the discrimination against gay people based on things written in a religious text, or laws against selling alcohol on Sundays.

Two words for you- conscientious objector.

How is that relevant to what I posted? I think you misread me. Unless military chaplains now exist to encourage service members to be conscientious objectors, you're making up your own topic here.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Is that a bad thing? Lol

You should know better, look who the source is.... I say yes, she says no, I say up, she says down...

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yes you did. You clarified yourself AFTER the argument started.

Get over it.

Originally Posted by KDMafia

Also, a belief system is not the same as a religion. We all have belief systems, but unless there is a specific dogma and unified rules it is not a religion.

I disagree because if that was the case we wouldn't have sects or denominations.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

No, and I acknowledged that in one of my posts. He does keep falling into lumping, though. I object when he tries to backtrack.

Get over it.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Prayer in schools, town christmas displays or events (although really it's mostly a secular celebration of christmas) and so on. Mostly though it's distinctive in its lack of inclusivity. Prayer in schools is always Christian prayer, it is always a town Christmas celebration, not Eid, and so on. That's just the briefest bit on a local level. I really don't see why public funds should go to any of it.

I guess it's a different experience for everyone. I don't know what town you're from but I've never seen/experienced school prayers, town Christmas celebrations, etc in Michigan.

Not necessarily lawsuit worthy UNLESS other groups have tried to gain equal time/space and been rejected, IMO. But either way I think it's inappropriate. Oh and we could discuss the conservative christian culture in the military, particularly in the academies, or the discrimination against gay people based on things written in a religious text, or laws against selling alcohol on Sundays.

Once again, different experience for everyone. I've never lived in a place where one couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays.
DISCLAIMER (CUZ APPARENTLY ITS NECESSARY)- You can buy alcohol on Sunday's in the places I've lived but not till after noon.

How is that relevant to what I posted? I think you misread me. Unless military chaplains now exist to encourage service members to be conscientious objectors, you're making up your own topic here.

I didn't misread you, It's just that you didn't get the relevancy of what I posted. I don't blame you nor do I judge you because reading your post it's clear to me that you do not understand the role/influence/power/control (or lack of) of the military chaplain. It's totally understandable though, since you have never been in the military and probably have never met a real life chaplain

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

You should know better, look who the source is.... I say yes, she says no, I say up, she says down...
Get over it.

I disagree because if that was the case we wouldn't have sects or denominations.

Get over it.

I guess it's a different experience for everyone. I don't know what town you're from but I've never seen/experienced school prayers, town Christmas celebrations, etc in Michigan.

Once again, different experience for everyone. I've never lived in a place where one couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays.
DISCLAIMER (CUZ APPARENTLY ITS NECESSARY)- You can buy alcohol on Sunday's in the places I've lived but not till after noon.




I didn't misread you, It's just that you didn't get the relevancy of what I posted. I don't blame you nor do I judge you because reading your post it's clear to me that you do not understand the role/influence/power/control (or lack of) of the military chaplain. It's totally understandable though, since you have never been in the military and probably have never met a real life chaplain

Got your goat. Want it back? It's lovely when you pretend not to be irritated. Change your story. Backtrack. You know you said something stupid. I have nothing to get over.

[Ghostwriter]

Here is a group called "Freedom From Religion" who have lost their lawsuit against Gov. Rick Perry and his "Prayer Day".

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...est=latestnews

I think the groups name says it all.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Got your goat. Want it back? It's lovely when you pretend not to be irritated. Change your story. Backtrack. You know you said something stupid. I have nothing to get over.

No my goat is still where I left him, recovering from last night Lol at you though. I never changed my story or backtracked. I've had the same opinion and position through out this thread, I just clarified who I was speaking of in my second post. Get over it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

No my goat is still where I left him, recovering from last night Lol at you though. I never changed my story or backtracked. I've had the same opinion and position through out this thread, I just clarified who I was speaking of in my second post. Get over it.

So you say.

[SWTXBelle]

Many religions believe homosexuality is a sin. Requiring all those chaplains to go against their religious beliefs would be government interference in religion - unless they are running up to random service members and yelling "You are going to hell!". But those reports (link, please?) from homosexual members make me wonder - if you are gay and know that a denomination or religion believe homosexuality is a sin, why would you a.) go to that denomination's service or b.) to that clergy member for counseling. To the best of my knowledge (and my friend who is a retired chaplain) those are the primary duties of a chaplain. No one is forced to attend services or seek counseling. Do you have a problem with those who regard adultery as a sin? Because I can guarantee there are adulterers in the armed forces. If you require all chaplains to essentially have no beliefs with which someone might disagree I think only UUs would be able to serve, and it is my understanding that they wouldn't be able to include those who will not accept the validity of all beliefs.

Now if a chaplain were to rail against sin at, for example, a multi-denominational service that would be different. I am not comfortable with the idea of restricting religious belief or expression unless it violates the law. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster chaplain wants to preach against the evils of Alfredo sauce, he/she should be able to, even though I personally love the creamy richness, artery-clogging although it may be. I just won't go to his/her service.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Many religions believe homosexuality is a sin. Requiring all those chaplains to go against their religious beliefs would be government interference in religion - unless they are running up to random service members and yelling "You are going to hell!". But those reports (link, please?) from homosexual members make me wonder - if you are gay and know that a denomination or religion believe homosexuality is a sin, why would you a.) go to that denomination's service or b.) to that clergy member for counseling. To the best of my knowledge (and my friend who is a retired chaplain) those are the primary duties of a chaplain. No one is forced to attend services or seek counseling. Do you have a problem with those who regard adultery as a sin? Because I can guarantee there are adulterers in the armed forces. If you require all chaplains to essentially have no beliefs with which someone might disagree I think only UUs would be able to serve, and it is my understanding that they wouldn't be able to include those who will not accept the validity of all beliefs.

Now if a chaplain were to rail against sin at, for example, a multi-denominational service that would be different. I am not comfortable with the idea of restricting religious belief unless it violates the law. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster chaplain wants to preach against the evils of Alfredo sauce, he/she should be able to, even though I personally love the creamy richness, artery-clogging although it may be. I just won't go to his/her service.

That is apparently debatable.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Many religions believe homosexuality is a sin. Requiring all those chaplains to go against their religious beliefs would be government interference in religion - unless they are running up to random service members and yelling "You are going to hell!". But those reports (link, please?) from homosexual members make me wonder - if you are gay and know that a denomination or religion believe homosexuality is a sin, why would you a.) go to that denomination's service or b.) to that clergy member for counseling. To the best of my knowledge (and my friend who is a retired chaplain) those are the primary duties of a chaplain. No one is forced to attend services or seek counseling. Do you have a problem with those who regard adultery as a sin? Because I can guarantee there are adulterers in the armed forces. If you require all chaplains to essentially have no beliefs with which someone might disagree I think only UUs would be able to serve, and it is my understanding that they wouldn't be able to include those who will not accept the validity of all beliefs.

Now if a chaplain were to rail against sin at, for example, a multi-denominational service that would be different. I am not comfortable with the idea of restricting religious belief or expression unless it violates the law. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster chaplain wants to preach against the evils of Alfredo sauce, he/she should be able to, even though I personally love the creamy richness, artery-clogging although it may be. I just won't go to his/her service.

In quite a few military situations, particularly (perhaps ironically?) the ones that feature the highest incidence of situations that would bring someone to see a chaplain, there are few (if any) options. There may be one guy.

There's no "Mall of Chaplains" to choose from. If a guy wants spiritual guidance on how to deal with the death of a friend, or to clear his conscience should the unthinkable happen, he should be able to do so without someone railing against gays.

And that's not "going against [the chaplain's] religion" - they don't have to be pro-gay or anything (that would be going against it). Just not anti-gay. There's a world of difference.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

You should know better, look who the source is.... I say yes, she says no, I say up, she says down...
Get over it.

I disagree because if that was the case we wouldn't have sects or denominations.

Get over it.

I guess it's a different experience for everyone. I don't know what town you're from but I've never seen/experienced school prayers, town Christmas celebrations, etc in Michigan.

Once again, different experience for everyone. I've never lived in a place where one couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays.
DISCLAIMER (CUZ APPARENTLY ITS NECESSARY)- You can buy alcohol on Sunday's in the places I've lived but not till after noon.

Read the news, these things exist.

I didn't misread you, It's just that you didn't get the relevancy of what I posted. I don't blame you nor do I judge you because reading your post it's clear to me that you do not understand the role/influence/power/control (or lack of) of the military chaplain. It's totally understandable though, since you have never been in the military and probably have never met a real life chaplain

So, you replied to tell me how wrong I am and how I don't get it, without bothering to actually try to clarify? Keep the smug and actually address the point or don't bother typing.

My understanding of military chaplains is that they provide worship services, and individual counseling to military members. I know, based on reports from gay and lesbian service members, that chaplains have preached, and continue to preach, against homosexuality within the units to which they're assigned. Please tell me where I'm wrong here. Particularly since some chaplains are freaking the fuck out about the DADT repeal.

I have no problem saying that the chaplains should be required to have their speech in the role of chaplain, restricted or GTFO. That's part of being in the military and working on the behalf of the government.

I only threw in the idea of a pacifist chaplain as a hypothetical. Regarding the 'black humanist chaplains' mentioned.. um.. 'cool' I guess? There's nothing wrong with that either, as long as they're not telling people that being religious is wrong. Although I question some of the validity of this since at least the Army's chaplain rules require being a clergy member, something most humanists don't have, except perhaps the UU I suppose. So, whatever.