Are you @#$%ing kidding me??

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's extremely judgmental and labeling. There are plenty of parents who are proud that their master status is that of parent. That includes but is not limited to stay-at-home parents (some of whom have advanced degrees) whose full-time job is to proudly raise their children until they reach a certain age.

Maybe so. Admonishment accepted.

In my defense, I guess what I'm reacting to are the parents I've (personally) seen who make being a parent the defining aspect of their identity. Once the child is grown, they are totally adrift. I know many parents who are justifiably proud of what they did as parents and consider their greatest accomplishment, and rightfully so. Where I get uncomfortable is when the parent loses himself or herself in parenthood, and that's what I was referring to.

And while I'm at it, I'll say that my opinion in this thread may be colored by the fact that I'm not a "card person." I forget (or don't bother) to carry business cards on me most of the time. I probably hand out fewer than one dozen a year. As for calling cards, about the only time my wife and I use them is in wedding presents or the like. I'm not criticizing people who get them or hand them out at all -- I'm just saying that's not me.


It's almost Lent. I'll try to do better with my judgmentalism.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe so. Admonishment accepted.

In my defense, I guess what I'm reacting to are the parents I've (personally) seen who make being a parent the defining aspect of their identity. Once the child is grown, they are totally adrift. I know many parents who are justifiably proud of what they did as parents and consider their greatest accomplishment, and rightfully so. Where I get uncomfortable is when the parent loses himself or herself in parenthood, and that's what I was referring to.

That's fair--it was the blanket statement that threw me off. I'm not unfamiliar with the phenomenon of the parent who wraps her identity around a child. One woman in particular, a former co-worker, has revolved her entire life around her three-year old daughter. Her daughter's come before her livelihood (no matter how much you love your child, you really need to be able to keep a roof over his/her head) and her marriage (which really should come first). This woman had a pretty terrible childhood and didn't have a lot going on for her (job, education, friends) UNTIL she had her daughter.

Granted, that's a lot of pathology going on there, but to some extent I understand why she did it. I hope she pulls back enough to allow her daughter to have some sort of a life, though.

I'd worry about a mother like that way earlier than I'd worry about a college-educated, happily-married woman with or without an out-of-the-home job who wants to pass out "mommy cards."

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

That's fair--it was the blanket statement that threw me off. I'm not unfamiliar with the phenomenon of the parent who wraps her identity around a child. One woman in particular, a former co-worker, has revolved her entire life around her three-year old daughter. Her daughter's come before her livelihood (no matter how much you love your child, you really need to be able to keep a roof over his/her head) and her marriage (which really should come first).

Hi-jack:

I've had people seriously debate me over the "you need to place your relationship with your spouse over your kids" point.

That's my belief (happy parents with a solid relationship lead to well-adjusted kids), but there are people who seriously think you said "I want to BBQ my children with a side of corn and feed them to my husband" when you say "marriage = first."

(Obviously, yes, if the other parent is an axe murderer, the kid's health and safety needs to come first. But I'm talking about in normal situations.)

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Hi-jack:

I've had people seriously debate me over the "you need to place your relationship with your spouse over your kids" point.

That's my belief (happy parents with a solid relationship lead to well-adjusted kids), but there are people who seriously think you said "I want to BBQ my children with a side of corn and feed them to my husband" when you say "marriage = first."

(Obviously, yes, if the other parent is an axe murderer, the kid's health and safety needs to come first. But I'm talking about in normal situations.)

A few years ago, a fairly well-known author wrote an essay about how she loved her husband more than she loved her children. You'd have thought she wrote a screed discussing the benefits of pedophilia, the way that so many women lashed out at her. She went on Oprah and they had to hold one lady back!

I think that what she said might be a little simplistic (I'd imagine you'd love your children in a different way than you'd love a romantic partner!), it's not a terrible thing to admit. The marriage is the foundation--which is why kids are often happier (in the long run) after a divorce.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Hi-jack:

I've had people seriously debate me over the "you need to place your relationship with your spouse over your kids" point.

That's my belief (happy parents with a solid relationship lead to well-adjusted kids), but there are people who seriously think you said "I want to BBQ my children with a side of corn and feed them to my husband" when you say "marriage = first."

(Obviously, yes, if the other parent is an axe murderer, the kid's health and safety needs to come first. But I'm talking about in normal situations.)

Here's the order as far as I'm concerned:

God
Spouse/significant other
Kids

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It took everything in me to tell you that I considered that judgmental and labeling. Thanks for not making me feel worse than I already felt for telling you that.

This is about gender socialization which translates into family and parenting processes. Women are more likely than men to be socialized to believe that parenting should be the defining aspect of their identity. It is very easy to lose yourself in something that you have done for so long, that you are so proud of, and that society at large has told you that you should immerse yourself in. People do that with their careers all of the time. I don't see why people see that as less ridiculous than losing yourself in parenting. The average person is a (insert occupation/education level) when you meet them and you often have to say "okay...that's what you got a degree in and do for a living...what do you enjoy when you aren't doing that" for them to go beyond what they consider to be their crowning glory.

Beyond that, this topic really isn't about the extremes of helicopter parents and parents who don't know who they are without their children (although remembering who you are without your children can also be difficult for more "full-time parents"). There are parents who are proud parents, first and foremost, but have a sense of balance with the help of others. It can't be done alone.

All very good points. And for the record, I also try very hard to guard against being the dad/husband/person who is defined by his work. It's a discussion my wife and I have had many times -- how part of how we (try to) parent well is by (trying to) model a balanced life for a our kids. I had parents who modelled it well.

I don't "celebrate" Lent but I am also working on my judgmental ways, among other things that are not pleasing in God's sight.

I don't "celebrate" it either; I "observe" it.

But otherwise, yeah.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is about gender socialization which translates into family and parenting processes. Women are more likely than men to be socialized to believe that parenting should be the defining aspect of their identity.

And the best way to fight socialization is to take an active mental stance on fighting it, right?

So passive elements that play into socialization (particularly since the 'worst' socialization comes from internalization) are likely more pernicious than they may appear at first glance, no?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

And the best way to fight socialization is to take an active mental stance on fighting it, right?

Both women and men should be socialized to believe that they can choose to have their status as parents be the defining aspect of their identity without fear of being judged and labeled as a helicopter parent or loser who doesn't know their own name. Women and men should also be socialized to believe that they can choose to not have their status as parents be the defining aspect of their identity without fear of being told that they are incapable and incompetent as parents. And, in the case of women, without being told that they fail at womanhood and femininity because they identify as being more than a parent.

Hence, my posts in this thread. Yours, not so much.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Both women and men should be socialized to believe that they can choose to have their status as parents be the defining aspect of their identity without fear of being judged and labeled as a helicopter parent or loser who doesn't know their own name. Women and men should also be socialized to believe that they can choose to not have their status as parents be the defining aspect of their identity without fear of being told that they are incapable and incompetent as parents. And, in the case of women, without being told that they fail at womanhood and femininity because they identify as being more than a parent.

Hence, my posts in this thread. Yours, not so much.

I blame our feminist rants on International Women's Day. It should be abolished. Either that or tomorrow (and the following 363 days) will forever now be known as International Men's Day.