Quota Additions at Super Competitive Schools

[AOII Angel]

I've worked with a chapter that didn't keep the number suggested by CPC. I obviously can't get into why bc of the whole ritual thing. The chapter in question did NOT make quota that year. They were not eligible for QAs. They actually had just the number of women at Pref to fill a pledge class including all of their parties. As an advisor, I thought this was incredibly stupid, but the collegians had no problem with it. The threw a couple COB parties and picked up girls they wanted, and that was the end of it. I don't know how much the Chapter Advisor had to go through to make this go through, but I have the impression as a high functioning chapter, it wasn't much.

[KSUViolet06]

I think that gee_ess is coming from the perspective of Arkansas, which is a whole different ball of wax. They need an expansion pretty badly, but no one is biting on sumbitting materials because to be successful at UA takes big money to compete with existing groups.

The Panhellenic community there does recognize the need, but member groups are apprehensive, nothing happens, and chapters just keep getting bigger.

They set a record this year I'm pretty sure (quota was past 100.)

But they DO recognize the need for it.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I think that gee_ess is coming from the perspective of Arkansas, which is a whole different ball of wax. They need an expansion pretty badly, but no one is biting on sumbitting materials because to be successful at UA takes big money to compete with existing groups.

The Panhellenic community there does recognize the need, but member groups are apprehensive, nothing happens, and chapters just keep getting bigger.

They set a record this year I'm pretty sure (quota was past 100.)

But they DO recognize the need for it.

Right, and like I said, I acknowledge there are some HUGE hurdles at some schools, probably the ones with the highest quotas for that reason. Not sure there's an easy solution there other than the entire school rallying behind a new chapter to ensure it survives (which requires ditching a lot of the tier bullshit that is still 'important' at some schools).

Not knowing Arkansas campus culture, I wonder if the sororities and fraternities could or would pull together like that in a show of support that would ease some of those fears, and if it would last.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, and like I said, I acknowledge there are some HUGE hurdles at some schools, probably the ones with the highest quotas for that reason. Not sure there's an easy solution there other than the entire school rallying behind a new chapter to ensure it survives (which requires ditching a lot of the tier bullshit that is still 'important' at some schools).

Not knowing Arkansas campus culture, I wonder if the sororities and fraternities could or would pull together like that in a show of support that would ease some of those fears, and if it would last.

^^^It's not even other groups that would be the issue though.

All the rallying in the world or forgetting about "tiers" doesn't change the fact that, for example, comparable housing for a chapter at UA costs $x million dollars.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush

Unless the pnm is ridiculous (strange beyond words, horrible gpa etc.) it's rare for her to be cut by all chapters. Generally she eliminates the "must invite all back" chapters with her rankings in the first round or two where she still ends up with a full schedule. By the time those "stronger recruiting" chapters are doing the cuts that eliminate her, she doesn't have any of those other "weaker recruiting" chapters left so she's left completely without invites. This is how pnms end up "dropping through the cracks" as it seems to get called on gc.

Isn't that why RFM has the "SR" chapters cutting first round, so people do NOT drop through the cracks? Because they should be returning to the lower ranked chapters on their list (since PNMs don't cut, just rank) as they're cut by "SR" chapters. RFM is supposed to minimize the "accidental" complete cut. But it doesn't stop the intentional complete cut.

ETA:This also doesn't take into consideration girls who drop out because they don't get picked by their top choice(s).

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

^^^It's not even other groups that would be the issue though.

All the rallying in the world or forgetting about "tiers" doesn't change the fact that, for example, comparable housing for a chapter at UA costs $x million dollars.

Right, but it might be time to start chapters without housing. Crazy? Maybe. But I'd hope it's at least considered.

In short I'm saying solving the problems 'caused' by RFM are really more systematic issues. Quota was going to become an issue at large schools with high start up costs no matter what because the other option was cutting 50% or more of PNMs leading to higher anti-Greek opinion and a social stratification of Greek Life that's pretty undesirable and likely unsustainable in the long term.

[Barbie's_Rush]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Isn't that why RFM has the "SR" chapters cutting first round, so people do NOT drop through the cracks? Because they should be returning to the lower ranked chapters on their list (since PNMs don't cut, just rank) as they're cut by "SR" chapters. RFM is supposed to minimize the "accidental" complete cut. But it doesn't stop the intentional complete cut.

ETA:This also doesn't take into consideration girls who drop out because they don't get picked by their top choice(s).

Theoretically, but the reality at super competitive schools is a little different. Although the first round cuts for "SR" chapters are brutal, the second round is usually much worse. Without going into MS details, there may be reasons many pnms have to be invited to that second round even though you know you're going to cut them next. Those are the kinds of pnms who can be left with few options after the second and third rounds, because those are where a lot of the "middle" chapters really have to start making painful cuts.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush

Theoretically, but the reality at super competitive schools is a little different. Although the first round cuts for "SR" chapters are brutal, the second round is usually much worse. Without going into MS details, there may be reasons many pnms have to be invited to that second round even though you know you're going to cut them next. Those are the kinds of pnms who can be left with few options after the second and third rounds, because those are where a lot of the "middle" chapters really have to start making painful cuts.

Right, would you say though that overall getting cut across the board is down though?

[Barbie's_Rush]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, would you say though that overall getting cut across the board is down though?

I don't have any personal experience to base that on since I've only dealt with rfm. All I know is that there is still a lot of crosscutting butthurt that happens at my school and the others I am familiar with (and that doesn't even factor in the number of pnms who stomp away from recruitment when the only "acceptable" chapters drop them.)

You know, that's also something to think about. Every time a snowflake drops with mid and lower chapters left on her invite list, that's another pnm who didn't get invited to those chapters that round.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, but it might be time to start chapters without housing. Crazy? Maybe. But I'd hope it's at least considered.

This is probably why schools with no housing/cheap housing are able to extend the easiest. I don't see how a chapter at an SEC school such as Arkansas could survive without a house even with the "support" of everyone on campus. PNMs will see an unhoused chapter at such a campus as inferior, no matter what anyone says. So unless a sorority is content to have a lower, but hopefully stable membership than the rest of the Panhellenc sororities, they won't start a colony without plans for a house. Even then, it would do little to alleviate the massive quotas because chances are such a chapter would win over women they know personally, rather than those who sign up for formal recruitment.

RFM can only force a PNM to attend a chapter's parties 4 times per formal recruitment. It can't force them to rank them on their pref card (well maybe shouldn't is more correct; I think misleading PNMs needs to stop), it can't force them to accept a bid, it can't force them to initiate, it can't force them to be members for 4 years, and it can't force them to become active alumnae.

I agree with Barbie that RFM does a great job for helping the middle and "upper lower" chapters. On my own campus, around when I joined in 2004, there were several chapters that didn't regularly make quota, and now everyone makes quota regularly and has good retention, except for one chapter. "Icky Iotas" are afforded the chance to win over a lot of PNMs. RFM can't solve every membership problem, but I still maintain it helps.

Thinking of schools with a distinct "pecking order" like Barbie's, it is true that no matter how much RFM shoves Icky Iota down PNMs' throats, if they do match quota, it's most likely because PNMs were tricked into ranking them. In such scenarios, I think that Icky Iota's (and their HQs!) need to realize that formal recruitment will probably never be the only place to get all their members. They need to realize they need to build relationships with women they meet in class, in their dorms, at other activities, at campus jobs, through mutual friends, to win them over, not have eleventy thousand COB events every semester.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Just a quick note: Because the problem has gotten so dire at Arkansas, the sororities on campus are very supportive of expansion and would support a new house or two. I don't think there is anyone who is not on board with this, unless it is the one, eternal Icky Iota house that struggles despite RFM (and suffers all of the problems discussed in this thread)RFM has helped them, but it has not put them on equal ground.

That's good, although if it's support that would waver after the chapter colonizes and becomes 'competition' it won't last.

I agree that the large pledge class problem is fairly isolated around the country, but if you go back and look, it is expanding each year. Arkansas has been dealing with it for at least 5 years, then Alabama, then Ole Miss, etc.

Unfortunately as long as it costs '$X' to colonize at those schools it's probably going to be worse before it gets better.

Drolefille, you are right, it is a systemic problem partly. But weren't crosscuts, and bidless girls also systemic on campuses prior to RFM?

They were, which is why I see it as a campus-system problem rather than a RFM system-wide problem. Because without RFM you would have the alternative, artificially small 'elite' Greek population on a campus that will only engender animosity because half of your 500 PNMs get cut because quota is 45.

I am not advocating the end of RFM, far from it. I am simply saying that RFM needs to be tweaked to find some answers for these large quotas. Or maybe National Pan needs to provide some help to groups trying to get on those campuses begging for expansion. IMO, the general attitude that "RFM is working for weaker houses" is kind of reverse discrimination and causing ripple effects across the country. Some campuses are more apparent, but I think others will begin to have issues.

I don't see how it involves reverse discrimination-something that rarely exists anywhere- at all. The stronger chapters didn't need help and were benefitting from the old system at the expense of the 'weaker' chapters. And, overall, they're still benefiting from RFM. It seems like RFM's weaknesses are in the lowest end of the recruiting spectrum. I don't really agree that quota size is RFM's fault, but that it's the campus system's fault.

I'd love to see the NPC provide some sort of support to help at campuses like UA.

The houses filling these huge quotas, despite being able to brag about their recruitment success, don't want NM groups this large. It causes all sorts of the same problems for a stronog chapter (drop outs, uninvolved, lost in the crowd) that bid lists filled with girls who get their 3rd choice cause for weaker houses.

Right, and i get that. Those are simply too big.

Originally Posted by carnation

No. They might paste on smiles and act like they were going to but you wait and see how long that new chapter lasts.

Then they'd rather have huge pledge class sizes than be panhellenic.

LOL. Not going to happen. Even a smaller house would brand a chapter.

I wonder if 3 or 4 chapters colonized at once, all not having housing. I know in reality it would created a secondary 'tier' but at least it wouldn't be ONE Icky Iota, but three Secondary Sigmas or something.

Originally Posted by violetpretty

This is probably why schools with no housing/cheap housing are able to extend the easiest. I don't see how a chapter at an SEC school such as Arkansas could survive without a house even with the "support" of everyone on campus. PNMs will see an unhoused chapter at such a campus as inferior, no matter what anyone says. So unless a sorority is content to have a lower, but hopefully stable membership than the rest of the Panhellenc sororities, they won't start a colony without plans for a house. Even then, it would do little to alleviate the massive quotas because chances are such a chapter would win over women they know personally, rather than those who sign up for formal recruitment.

Yeah, I know. I'm kind of just brainstorming here because I don't think RFM itself is the problem, I think it's the situation on campus itself.

RFM can only force a PNM to attend a chapter's parties 4 times per formal recruitment. It can't force them to rank them on their pref card (well maybe shouldn't is more correct; I think misleading PNMs needs to stop), it can't force them to accept a bid, it can't force them to initiate, it can't force them to be members for 4 years, and it can't force them to become active alumnae.

I agree with Barbie that RFM does a great job for helping the middle and "upper lower" chapters. On my own campus, around when I joined in 2004, there were several chapters that didn't regularly make quota, and now everyone makes quota regularly and has good retention, except for one chapter. "Icky Iotas" are afforded the chance to win over a lot of PNMs. RFM can't solve every membership problem, but I still maintain it helps.

I agree 100%. It doesn't solve all problems, but it is, I believe, a better system for doing recruitment.

Thinking of schools with a distinct "pecking order" like Barbie's, it is true that no matter how much RFM shoves Icky Iota down PNMs' throats, if they do match quota, it's most likely because PNMs were tricked into ranking them. In such scenarios, I think that Icky Iota's (and their HQs!) need to realize that formal recruitment will probably never be the only place to get all their members. They need to realize they need to build relationships with women they meet in class, in their dorms, at other activities, at campus jobs, through mutual friends, to win them over, not have eleventy thousand COB events every semester.

I also agree with this, HQs need to 'get' that (and maybe they do but it doesn't always come across to actives that way) and so do the actives.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I wonder if 3 or 4 chapters colonized at once, all not having housing. I know in reality it would created a secondary 'tier' but at least it wouldn't be ONE Icky Iota, but three Secondary Sigmas or something.

If you're talking about many SEC schools, it would create three more Icky Iotas, not Secondary Sigmas.

And because they were IIs due to housing issues, it really wouldn't be their fault, which is sad! I know that we encourage PNMs to maximize their options, but face it: many Icky Iota chapters are that way due to something they do or have done and you can't blame PNMs for avoiding them. When I was at Auburn, there were 2 little chapters. One was new and trying to build up and had no reputation problems--they just needed time. The other--several of their members, even the new ones, did some really gross stuff out in the open at parties.

I know I'm rambling but the point I wanted to make is that some IIs are that way due to reasons they can't help--housing, new chapter, colonized at a bad time, etc. This would be these new groups and I would really feel for them in an SEC situation.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Not knowing Arkansas campus culture, I wonder if the sororities and fraternities could or would pull together like that in a show of support that would ease some of those fears, and if it would last.

No. They might paste on smiles and act like they were going to but you wait and see how long that new chapter lasts.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, but it might be time to start chapters without housing. Crazy? Maybe. But I'd hope it's at least considered.

LOL. Not going to happen. Even a smaller house would brand a chapter.

The 4 sororities that used to be there have refused to recolonize. They can see what the future would hold for their chapter. I hate it and would like to see them back but realistically...

[gee_ess]

Just a quick note: Because the problem has gotten so dire at Arkansas, the sororities on campus are very supportive of expansion and would support a new house or two. I don't think there is anyone who is not on board with this, unless it is the one, eternal Icky Iota house that struggles despite RFM (and suffers all of the problems discussed in this thread)RFM has helped them, but it has not put them on equal ground.

I agree that the large pledge class problem is fairly isolated around the country, but if you go back and look, it is expanding each year. Arkansas has been dealing with it for at least 5 years, then Alabama, then Ole Miss, etc.

Drolefille, you are right, it is a systemic problem partly. But weren't crosscuts, and bidless girls also systemic on campuses prior to RFM?

I am not advocating the end of RFM, far from it. I am simply saying that RFM needs to be tweaked to find some answers for these large quotas. Or maybe National Pan needs to provide some help to groups trying to get on those campuses begging for expansion. IMO, the general attitude that "RFM is working for weaker houses" is kind of reverse discrimination and causing ripple effects across the country. Some campuses are more apparent, but I think others will begin to have issues.

The houses filling these huge quotas, despite being able to brag about their recruitment success, don't want NM groups this large. It causes all sorts of the same problems for a stronog chapter (drop outs, uninvolved, lost in the crowd) that bid lists filled with girls who get their 3rd choice cause for weaker houses.

[Low C Sharp]

What's the position of the administration at Arkansas? Are they supportive of expansion? (From the outside, it looks like Alabama is -- giving prime land to chapters to build new, bigger houses.) Is there any chance they could support the new chapter somehow, with a favorable loan or something like that?
________

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

What's the position of the administration at Arkansas? Are they supportive of expansion? (From the outside, it looks like Alabama is -- giving prime land to chapters to build new, bigger houses.) Is there any chance they could support the new chapter somehow, with a favorable loan or something like that?

Arkansas is supportive of expansion but has not, as of yet, made any significant gestures to help with this problem. I think anything that the administration could do would be a plus. Hats off to Alabama for giving land. I was not aware of that.