Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Here's the thing - I did a research paper on this in 2001. The numbers could have changed some by now (I kinda doubt it), but statistically 97% of abortions are performed as post-conception birth control, 2% rape/incest, and 1% heath reason (mother or child) - and I had several sources on those statistics. It wasn't one pro-life periodical that I got that from. At the time I did the research, it was estimated that 1/3 of all pregnancies were ending in abortion. Seemed high to me, but again, several sources.


I am sympathetic to the rape/incest/medical issues, but the numbers say that it's not what's happening. If it weren't for a fear of innocent (male) victims, I would be willing to say that abortion should be legal only for danger to the mother and legitimate rape/incest cases where charges are filed. Like I said, I know that's not fesable, because it opens up a willing sexual partner to a later rape charge.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not killing babies. And whatever medical term you want to give it at whatever stage of development, it's still human.

Even if these numbers could be substantiated (rape and incest are under-reported,) pro-choice advocates would love to see the numbers of abortions go DOWN by having decent sex education and contraceptive services available. This is the never ending argument of "can't condone pre-marital sex" BS. If you want to really make a difference in abortion numbers, you don't do it by making abortion more difficult to obtain (we know how women used to get back alley illegal abortions) you make it less necessary by making contraception more available!

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Even if these numbers could be substantiated (rape and incest are under-reported,) pro-choice advocates would love to see the numbers of abortions go DOWN by having decent sex education and contraceptive services available. This is the never ending argument of "can't condone pre-marital sex" BS. If you want to really make a difference in abortion numbers, you don't do it by making abortion more difficult to obtain (we know how women used to get back alley illegal abortions) you make it less necessary by making contraception more available!

Yes, I get that there isn't a way to get 100% accurate statistics, but even if it were 70%/29%/1%, I would still call that ridiculous...and that's giving a 27% benefit of the doubt.

I'm absolutely not an abstinence-only advocate...in fact, I love what PhoenixAzul's school did. I don't even care what other people do with their own sex lives - but I do care when they bring someone else into the equation.


Some of you who have been around GC for awhile may recall my circumstances when I was pregnant with my daughter. Jr in college, my husband and I hadn't yet gotten married, I was only working part time, then we moved to NC and both got full time jobs, put on our big-kid pants, and made a life for our family. Yes, my parents helped us out a little, but the point is, we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices. It's not like I can't empathize with where these women are at. I've been there. I remember looking at that test and thinking "Holy crap! WTF do I do now?".

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Yes, I get that there isn't a way to get 100% accurate statistics, but even if it were 70%/29%/1%, I would still call that ridiculous...and that's giving a 27% benefit of the doubt.

I'm absolutely not an abstinence-only advocate...in fact, I love what PhoenixAzul's school did. I don't even care what other people do with their own sex lives - but I do care when they bring someone else into the equation.


Some of you who have been around GC for awhile may recall my circumstances when I was pregnant with my daughter. Jr in college, my husband and I hadn't yet gotten married, I was only working part time, then we moved to NC and both got full time jobs, put on our big-kid pants, and made a life for our family. Yes, my parents helped us out a little, but the point is, we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices. It's not like I can't empathize with where these women are at. I've been there. I remember looking at that test and thinking "Holy crap! WTF do I do now?".

And that was your choice. It was hard, but you actually had a reasonably good situation. Not everyone is as fortunate as you in that tough situation. When talking about such touchy subjects, it's often hard to put yourself in other people's shoes and think about what their situations may be. Yes, there are people who probably get abortions without even thinking about it, but I doubt those people are very common. It's a big decision and a tough one. Even people who are pro-choice say, "I am pro-choice, but I don't think I could make that choice for myself." That indicates that many people would have to be in a really tough place to make that choice.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

And that was your choice. It was hard, but you actually had a reasonably good situation. Not everyone is as fortunate as you in that tough situation. When talking about such touchy subjects, it's often hard to put yourself in other people's shoes and think about what their situations may be. Yes, there are people who probably get abortions without even thinking about it, but I doubt those people are very common. It's a big decision and a tough one. Even people who are pro-choice say, "I am pro-choice, but I don't think I could make that choice for myself." That indicates that many people would have to be in a really tough place to make that choice.

Well said.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

And that was your choice. It was hard, but you actually had a reasonably good situation. Not everyone is as fortunate as you in that tough situation. When talking about such touchy subjects, it's often hard to put yourself in other people's shoes and think about what their situations may be. Yes, there are people who probably get abortions without even thinking about it, but I doubt those people are very common. It's a big decision and a tough one. Even people who are pro-choice say, "I am pro-choice, but I don't think I could make that choice for myself." That indicates that many people would have to be in a really tough place to make that choice.

This is kind of where I am with the whole thing. I personally don't know if that's a choice I could/would make. However, I live in the real world where I recognize that not everyone is in the place (financally, emotionally, etc.) to care for an unplanned child.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

...we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices.

Why is parenthood considered the only "noble" choice, even over adoption? Like, bragging that you took the toughest punishment. I don't know if I'm clearly explaining myself. I can't stand it when people who do choose parenthood get up on a high horse by saying they "took responsibility" for their actions, as if that's the only responsible course of action. AF, you were lucky you had the resources to care for a child, even though it probably seemed tough and most certainly changed the plans you initially had for your life.

It's irresponsible to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. According to NARAL Pro-Choice America, 1.3 million abortions are performed each year, and about 75% of those are performed because the woman can't afford a/another child. Oh, but there's always adoption. What would 980,000 additional wards of the state every year do to our economy (17.64 million at any given time after 18+ years of such a policy)? Yet, the same people who block access to reproductive choice are often the ones begging to cut government spending.

I agree this case is horrific. I hope it serves as an example of what happens when access to reproductive choice is blocked for those who need it most.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Why is parenthood considered the only "noble" choice, even over adoption? Like, bragging that you took the toughest punishment. I don't know if I'm clearly explaining myself. I can't stand it when people who do choose parenthood get up on a high horse by saying they "took responsibility" for their actions, as if that's the only responsible course of action. AF, you were lucky you had the resources to care for a child, even though it probably seemed tough.

It's irresponsible to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. According to NARAL Pro-Choice America, 1.3 million abortions are performed each year, and about 75% of those are performed because the woman can't afford a/another child. Oh, but there's always adoption. What would 980,000 additional wards of the state every year do to our economy (17.6 million at any given time after 18+ years of such a policy)? Yet, the same people who block access to reproductive choice are often the ones begging to cut government spending.

I agree this case is horrific. I hope it serves as an example of what happens when access to reproductive choice is blocked for those who need it most.

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

I completely agree. But that means we need to make it easier to get contraception for every social class and remove the stigma from asking for these contraceptive methods. That means all types, including the pill and Plan B. The goal IS to reduce the need for abortion by responsible contraceptive use, but funding for contraceptives and family planning groups are constantly under attack. It's not a simple issue or one sided. Screaming that people just need to be responsible but not doing things to help them be responsible is pointless.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

First, life is not so black and white. Many women, including I don't doubt the ones that went to this "doctor" are not middle class college students. They don't always have access to birth control...or education.

Not to mention I know many women who have become pregant while having sex WITH protection. Again, this is not black and white. I would also like to point out that your definition of "handling the consequences in a responsible manner" is not the same as everyone else's.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high.

I thought your statistics said only 3% of abortions met the rape/incest/medical threats to the mother's life criteria? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I said that of the women that have abortions, 75% say they can't afford parenthood. There are more that use abortion as "post-conception birth control" (whether or not they tried other methods) but have abortions for other reasons. Financial reasons are subjective. I'm sure that not all of those 75% are toeing the bankruptcy line.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

I put "another" to be all inclusive. We're not only talking about teenagers and unmarried women. Just because a couple is married and has wanted children they can currently (but perhaps barely) afford doesn't mean they wouldn't seek an abortion if an unintended pregnancy were to occur. It is likely that such a couple would have less access to birth control pills or an IUD and the doctors visits required to continue such a prescription.

[AOII Angel]

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

Post conception birth control is still post conception birth control, regardless of whether a form of pre conception birth control was used.

The 1% was Health Reasons - mother OR child.


violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.