Etiquette?

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Well, I actually did find this thread to be interesting, so....

http://www.etiquette-ny.com/page/page/1507694.htm

I find this website interesting because it doesn't rely on "stereotypical southern etiquette" but it most likely relies on etiquette that is correlated with social class and gender. I find that interesting and think that not everything can be learned in a "lesson/class."

But, this website provides a decent example of how to organize etiquette. And be careful with language use as to avoid the back and forth in this thread.

Were we all sitting at dinner, I doubt this sort of thing would occur. Though that's a fair point...people should avoid "you" and such in social situations, as well as controversial topics so that no one gets their feathers ruffled.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Well, I actually did find this thread to be interesting, so....

http://www.etiquette-ny.com/page/page/1507694.htm

I find this website interesting because it doesn't rely on "stereotypical southern etiquette" but it most likely relies on etiquette that is correlated with social class and gender. I find that interesting and think that not everything can be learned in a "lesson/class."

But, this website provides a decent example of how to organize etiquette. And be careful with language use as to avoid the back and forth in this thread.

At least they teach Continental dining, not just American. I hate swapping my utensils and stopped as soon as I learned that that was "an option."

I tend to be more pro-politeness than etiquette if only because people make etiquette so much more complicated than it has to be at times. And etiquette seems to lag behind the culture, as it is inherently conservative in its nature.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

I find this thread interesting as well, right up until the "nuh-uh" "yes-huh" "yes you did" "no I didn't" "I'm right, you're wrong" "No no, I'M right and YOU'RE wrong" parts. I did laugh a few times though.

LOL. That's when the thread got wishywashy but funny.

Originally Posted by IrishLake

I like the etiquette school. My daughter would love the tea party for kids one.

Absolutley not everything can be learned in a class. Having a good base is essential, and from then on out.... when in Rome!

Yeah and those who would absolutely hate it would need to get over it long enough to learn some basics. I haven't finished skimming the site but am interested in the foundation for the etiquette that she teaches. She says they are long standing traditions and so forth. What that means goes back to what I was saying in my first two posts.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

No, I wasn't a bitch.

And really, you should work on your comebacks. They're cliché.

My opinion is that you're acting idiotically.
The fact is that you stated DrPhil used words that she didn't.
My opinion is that you're upset because you were caught out and don't want to back down.
The fact is that you continue posting.
My opinion is that you're trying to claim moral superiority and that that is hilarious.

Look, if you can't understand why your posts that I quoted were bitchy, I don't know what to tell you except keep that to the internet and don't use it in face to face conversations. You were bitchy. I was bitchy back. If you expect people to be polite and civil, be polite and civil yourself.

I'm superior to no one, morally or otherwise, and don't even come close to claiming to be, nor am I dumb enough to ever think that I am. That being said, neither are you.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Were we all sitting at dinner, I doubt this sort of thing would occur.

That depends.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Though that's a fair point...people should avoid "you" and such in social situations, as well as controversial topics so that no one gets their feathers ruffled.

No, people should not avoid "you" and such in social situations. I also disagree that people shouldn't discuss controversial topics. This isn't a recruitment advice thread.

People who are so concerned about ruffling feathers would get their proverbial ass kicked in some of my social and professional settings. They would be viewed as timid, weak, and overall unopinionated. There's a time and place for everything and tone matters, but don't confuse that with completely being unable to discuss certain topics or use certain words.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Look, if you can't understand why your posts that I quoted were bitchy, I don't know what to tell you except keep that to the internet and don't use it in face to face conversations. You were bitchy. I was bitchy back. If you expect people to be polite and civil, be polite and civil yourself.

I was certainly rude to you, and will continue to be, but I was not bitchy.

Do continue to ignore the difference. I don't give a shit if you're civil or not.

I'm superior to no one, morally or otherwise, and don't even come close to claiming to be, nor am I dumb enough to ever think that I am. That being said, neither are you.

Ooh sick burn. Clutch your pearls again the next time someone says something you think is an insult. It's just the right level of hypocrisy.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I tend to be more pro-politeness than etiquette if only because people make etiquette so much more complicated than it has to be at times. And etiquette seems to lag behind the culture, as it is inherently conservative in its nature.

Good point. I wonder how well politeness and etiquette mesh? Are they synonymous? Perhaps not. LOL.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Good point. I wonder how well politeness and etiquette mesh? Are they synonymous? Perhaps not. LOL.

I think the intent is that etiquette is a structured politeness, but because of that structure it doesn't necessarily adapt well to multiple situations/environments or evolve with the times. For example, it is considered rude to write "no presents" on an invitation because that presumes presents are offered. However it is generally culturally accepted that presents are offered at certain events. (YMMV) So people will call all their invitees, or have a friend or family member do so to inform them, yet still try to preserve "the rules."

Mostly if you're polite and can follow along with what everyone else does, you'll be fine in most social situations. But etiquette only seems to work when everyone you're around subscribes to the same rules. It makes me think of my friend's wedding next weekend and how since half of the guests will be from a different culture entirely the "rules" are going to be completely flummoxed depending on who one's with at any given point in time.

In general learning the basic rules is helpful and really is polite for the most part - don't clink things together a lot - or simply common -fancy restaurants all set their tables up this way, so here's how to use it or set it yourself - but beyond that it get far more complex and not entirely necessary in my opinion.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

with what everyone else does, you'll be fine in most social situations. But etiquette only seems to work when everyone you're around subscribes to the same rules. It makes me think of my friend's wedding next weekend and how since half of the guests will be from a different culture entirely the "rules" are going to be completely flummoxed depending on who one's with at any given point in time.

In general learning the basic rules is helpful and really is polite for the most part - don't clink things together a lot - or simply common -fancy restaurants all set their tables up this way, so here's how to use it or set it yourself - but beyond that it get far more complex and not entirely necessary in my opinion.

I think we have come full circle. LOL.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I think we have come full circle. LOL.

Crazy how that works, huh?

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I was certainly rude to you, and will continue to be, but I was not bitchy.

Do continue to ignore the difference. I don't give a shit if you're civil or not.



Ooh sick burn. Clutch your pearls again the next time someone says something you think is an insult. It's just the right level of hypocrisy.

You were bitchy. I was bitchy back. The comments I gave for example were sarcastic, bitchy, and self righteous. My view on that isn't going to change. I'm pretty open about the fact that if you behave like a bitch you're likely to get the same in return.

There was no burn whatsoever. It is fact. Fact: I find myself superior to no one. Fact: I find no one else superior to me. That's all there is to it.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That depends.



No, people should not avoid "you" and such in social situations. I also disagree that people shouldn't discuss controversial topics. This isn't a recruitment advice thread.

People who are so concerned about ruffling feathers would get their proverbial ass kicked in some of my social and professional settings. They would be viewed as timid, weak, and overall unopinionated. There's a time and place for everything and tone matters, but don't confuse that with completely being unable to discuss certain topics or use certain words.

In my opinion (though I should have added "depending on the context") using "you" puts people on the defense and bringing up politics or religion, for instance, very often results in heated conversation. In "polite", civil company, this wouldn't be appropriate. There are many other social situations in which is would be perfectly appropriate and topical. If such discussion is encouraged, participate. For instance, at dinner with my family, friends, and certain peers, it would be viewed, as "weak" as you said to not participate when such topics are broached. I can also think of many occasions where I have attended social events and dinners with acquaintances or strangers at which bringing up something controversial would be viewed as extremely rude. Again, it depends on the company and the nature of the function.

[DrPhil]

Yes, it depends.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

At least they teach Continental dining, not just American. I hate swapping my utensils and stopped as soon as I learned that that was "an option." . . .

Yes! I went to college knowing the basics of "American" (thanks, Mom and Dad), and I was grateful for the opportunitiy to learn "Continental." Having the options has helped me blend in with the style that others are following at dinner parties.

Observing the difference can be interesting even when watching TV. The various Wolf productions -- Law & Order SVU, Law & Order, and so on, sometimes make subtle points about socioeconomic class via table manners, for instance. The attorneys, by and large, in restaurant scenes, seem to use Continental, while beat cops in diners and neighborhod restaurants more often go "American," I think. A similar distinction seems to hold for rising when a lady arrives at or leaves a table.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by exlurker

Yes! I went to college knowing the basics of "American" (thanks, Mom and Dad), and I was grateful for the opportunitiy to learn "Continental." Having the options has helped me blend in with the style that others are following at dinner parties.

Observing the difference can be interesting even when watching TV. The various Wolf productions -- Law & Order SVU, Law & Order, and so on, sometimes make subtle points about socioeconomic class via table manners, for instance. The attorneys, by and large, in restaurant scenes, seem to use Continental, while beat cops in diners and neighborhod restaurants more often go "American," I think. A similar distinction seems to hold for rising when a lady arrives at or leaves a table.

I've never caught onto that, but now that you mention it, that's so true.

[Tulip86]

We teach the Continental rules to all new members during our new year's dinner.
Also, a formal dances are VERY formal at my college, guys wear coattails and girls long dresses (cocktail attire not allowed). New Members learn the social etiquette for events like that as well