Etiquette?

[DrPhil]

Etiquette is generally a good thing and it helps you to mingle in different environments. However, I recommend caution for these kinds of programs for two reasons:

1. People have differing opinions on some parts of etiquette. Make sure you are teaching business etiquette and aren't just teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette."
2. Make sure you know the difference between table etiquette and "teaching gender." I believe in teaching people how to eat at the table and other basic things but I don't agree with teaching people things like "women have to do this and men have to do that." Some etiquette classes delve into the gender part of it all. Blah.

In other words, don't be surprised if some people are resistant to certain aspects of table etiquette because, beyond the formality of it all, some of it seems ridiculous to some people.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Etiquette is generally a good thing and it helps you to mingle in different environments. However, I recommend caution for these kinds of programs for two reasons:

1. People have differing opinions on some parts of etiquette. Make sure you are teaching business etiquette and aren't just teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette."
2. Make sure you know the difference between table etiquette and "teaching gender." I believe in teaching people how to eat at the table and other basic things but I don't agree with teaching people things like "women have to do this and men have to do that." Some etiquette classes delve into the gender part of it all. Blah.

In other words, don't be surprised if some people are resistant to certain aspects of table etiquette because, beyond the formality of it all, some of it seems ridiculous to some people.

It might seem ridiculous to you, but in formal situations in the south for instance, the man is supposed to stand up for women, open doors, etc. If he doesn't, it can be perceived as rude. The most important etiquette when it comes to the table is the basics, since that doesn't vary much, but it's important to know what's appropriate in your current setting. If it's not necessary to employ those customs in the current setting then by all means don't, but it's important to be armed with the knowledge for situations that call for it. Especially since for many people this will all come to play at some point in their careers.

It would definitely be worth it to have a seminar, and remind the ladies that these rules are important to understand (at the least, the basics, like you said...use the napkin). I wish my chapter had done etiquette lessons. I was forced into learning that stuff as a kid (which I now appreciate) but could always use a refresher and many girls could have used a basic lesson.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

It might seem ridiculous to you, but in formal situations in the south for instance, the man is supposed to stand up for women, open doors, etc. If he doesn't, it can be perceived as rude.

LOL @ "supposed to" as though this is some objective standard.

It can be perceived as rude. The bolded is the operative phrase because context matters.

I'm from the south. A man not standing up for women and not always opening the doors for women has never made the building burn down at the many business meetings and (noncollegiate) galas that I have attended over the years. Opinions on etiquette matter because socialization patterns do not go unchallenged; and if you do an etiquette class where gender etiquette is brought up, don't be surprised if there are people who scoff. A smarter alternative is to teach them that context matters and you should be attentive to the context.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL @ supposed to.

It can be perceived as rude. The bolded is the operative phrase because context matters.

I'm from the south. A man not standing up for women and not always opening the doors for women has never made the building burn down at the many business meetings and (noncollegiate) galas that I have attended over the years. Opinions on etiquette matter because socialization patterns do not go unchallenged; and if you do an etiquette class where gender etiquette is brought up, don't be surprised if there are people who scoff.

In adult settings, I've found (as have the other adults in my life) that it does matter when people don't know basic etiquette, which yes, includes opening doors, etc. down here. Especially at dinners and social events. No one said the "house will burn down", but why not just do what's polite in the situation? My point is that it is important to know the etiquette for the setting. People who do business with international clients, for instance, learn the basics for the region they are visiting.

IMO it's important to give people the correct tools. They don't have to use them, but at least they're armed with the knowledge.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

In adult settings, I've found (as have the other adults in my life) that it does matter when people don't know basic etiquette, which yes, includes opening doors, etc. down here. Especially at dinners and social events.

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."

Table etiquette is arguably as basic as it comes and, like IrishLake said, that's a good idea regardless of where you're from. You will learn more etiquette things along the way as you travel to different places and spend time around different people.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

My point is that it is important to know the etiquette for the setting.

Then we agree.

Therefore, like I said, people need to know the difference between teaching "table etiquette" versus teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" and "teaching gender." Don't confuse the three and teach people to read context.

(Afterall, if they have gotten all the way to college and haven't learned yet that men are "supposed to" open the door for them in some settings, it isn't a sorority's job to teach them that.)

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."

I guess I just don't go to the right parties. I'm from Atlanta and live in Savannah, and no man has ever stood up when I leave the table unless it's a coincidence

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Again, there is no consensus over what basic etiquette is "down here." You consider basic etiquette to be things like men standing when a woman does. I do not. Yet, I'm still from "down here."



Then we agree.

Therefore, like I said, people need to know the difference between teaching "basic etiquette" versus teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" and "teaching gender." Don't confuse the three and teach people to read context.

Which again, comes back to arming them with the knowledge. They don't have to use it, but it's good to know. You might not consider those things basic, but many, many people do. No one's going to have a stroke because Mr. X forgets to hold the door open for his date, but some people will take note, and that's just reality. It's just like the example I used of people who do business internationally. They arm themselves with the correct etiquette for the region and business setting, and this is no different. Which is why it's important to be taught these things, then pick up on when they are necessary and when they are not. And that is as simple as observing your surroundings.

ETA: IrishLake's story about the formal date from Georgia is a good example of knowing your surroundings. When everyone at the table looks very confused as to why you're standing up for the ladies, it's time to just stay seated. Were he at dinner with a bunch of older ladies from back home and didn't stand, they would likely think he was rude or, "Bless his heart, he just doesn't know any better". (Though I will say, he deserves credit for trying to be polite, even if he missed the clues.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Which again, comes back to arming them with the knowledge. They don't have to use it, but it's good to know.

Right---Just don't confuse teaching "table etiquette" with teaching "stereotypically southern etiquette" (for southern chapters) and "teaching gender." And don't attempt to impose a certain view of overall etiquette on everyone as though there is a consensus across contexts.

That was always my point.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

And that is as simple as observing your surroundings.

Correct.