Juan Williams Fired

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am not sure I made any determination for you. I simply said "I can't see..." and "I see a double standard".

When I note that no context was provided, and you say that you can't imagine any context that would matter, I don't think it's a big leap to take that as meaning that context is irrelevant in this instance. But whatever you say.

Don't believe Schiller actually fired Juan Williams. She just defended the firing. Ellen Weiss did the firing.

I thought it was Schiller, but maybe it was Weiss (who has been in her position since 2007). Assuming it was Weiss, then I doubt she did it without Schiller's okay.

I don't have a copy of the company policy so I presumed that the policy was consistent from year to year and CEO to CEO. It seems to me that a boss or CEO cannot just say that things were done differently in the past so now that I am here it will be different unless he/she advises all associates that a policy or policies that have been overlooked for years would no longer be overlooked.

Companies, organizations and government agencies change their policies all the time. Often they do so in response to perceived shortcomings (or shoddy enforcement) of previous policies. Often it happens when new CEOs (or organizational equivalents) come in. The shocker for me would be if the policies didn't evolve over the years, especially given the evolution of the news business.

And why do you seem to assume that people at NPR weren't being told what the current policy is? From everything I have read and seen, Juan Williams was told repeatedly what the current policy is and what the consequences of violating them could be, as were other employees at NPR.

This simply was not a offense that merits termination IMHO.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I have no argument with it and I don't criticize it. Nor do I argue with or criticize those who would say NPR should have handled it very differently even if they were going to fire Williams.

What I do have argument with and what I do criticize is the use of the overbroad this-just-shows-the-double-standards-of-the-liberal-media brush.

[Drolefille]

I'm amused we're still going back 15 years to 'prove' how wrong NPR must be.

My focus is on what he said, and 2 things stand out. Any time someone says "I'm not a bigot, but..." the next words out of their mouth are going to be bigoted. Second, neither the 9/11 hijackers nor the shoe bomber wore 'Muslim garb.' Mr. William's expressed a bigoted opinion about an entire group of people and didn't even base that opinion on reality. He added that people wearing Muslim garb are 'declaring themselves first and foremost as Muslims' and that attitude to me, demonstrates the undercurrent of belief that Islam is incompatible with being an American.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Mr. William's expressed a bigoted opinion about an entire group of people and didn't even base that opinion on reality. He added that people wearing Muslim garb are 'declaring themselves first and foremost as Muslims' and that attitude to me, demonstrates the undercurrent of belief that Islam is incompatible with being an American.

I believe he was discussing his feelings not an opinion. It may be semantics but I think there is a difference. One's feelings are one's feelings and simply stating them does not a bigot make. It is how you react to those feelings that makes the difference. If one reacts rationally then the feeling/fear has been overcome in that particular instance. I simply don't think a person should be fired for being politically incorrect or expounding a feeling or even a view that is contrary to the perceived liberal or conservative norms.

Jesse Jackson stated at one time that he feels afraid he might be robbed when approached by black men on a dark street. That is his feeling and it is his concern. I am pretty sure he is not bigoted towards black youth due to this feeling. Some may think that these feelings might be irrational but they are apparently real to him. Hypothetically, if Jesse Jackson had worked for NPR and made this same statement today would his firing have been justified?

[DrPhil]

I agree with MysticCat and Drolefille.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Jesse Jackson stated at one time that he feels afraid he might be robbed when approached by black men on a dark street. That is his feeling and it is his concern. I am pretty sure he is not bigoted towards black youth due to this feeling. Some may think that these feelings might be irrational but they are apparently real to him. Hypothetically, if Jesse Jackson had worked for NPR and made this same statement today would his firing have been justified?

Jesse Jackson is a Black male making a statement about young Black males.

Not the same thing at all.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

One's feelings are one's feelings and simply stating them does not a bigot make.

Pretty sure that "one's feelings" very well make that person a bigot, if they are bigoted feelings.

I simply don't think a person should be fired for being politically incorrect or expounding a feeling or even a view that is contrary to the perceived liberal or conservative norms.

That's completely fair. It's also short-sighted.

I believe that news reporters need credibility with their audience, and that staying stupid shit diminishes that credibility to an extent that is likely irrecoverable. As a result, I think news people are held to their own standard, and not the standard of "all people," which really hurts your argument here. I wouldn't fire the guy from a CEO position or as garbage man - I think, though, that as "news reporter" he's gone. Same as if he'd claimed that Illuminati killed Kennedy.

The term "politically correct" has become the j-school/political equivalent of "synergy" - everyone would just be better off not using it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Pretty sure that "one's feelings" very well make that person a bigot, if they are bigoted feelings.



That's completely fair. It's also short-sighted.

I believe that news reporters need credibility with their audience, and that staying stupid shit diminishes that credibility to an extent that is likely irrecoverable. As a result, I think news people are held to their own standard, and not the standard of "all people," which really hurts your argument here. I wouldn't fire the guy from a CEO position or as garbage man - I think, though, that as "news reporter" he's gone. Same as if he'd claimed that Illuminati killed Kennedy.

The term "politically correct" has become the j-school/political equivalent of "synergy" - everyone would just be better off not using it.

Thank you so much. If I hear some one say that telling people how you feel doesn't make you a bigot one more time, I think I will scream! I guess someone saying, "I hate black people." isn't bigoted? It's ridiculous. Of course stating how you feel can be bigoted. Juan Williams made a bigoted statement. He lost credibility for his job on NPR, but he obviously did not for his job on Fox News.

[VandalSquirrel]

I've found this commentary from salon.com about Juan Williams being fired, and how there was no similar outcry for other firings rather interesting. Specifically it mentions other journalists who were fired, but their firing wasn't questioned, and also acknowledging the double standard for things said about Muslims as opposed to other groups.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...10/21/williams

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Thank you so much. If I hear some one say that telling people how you feel doesn't make you a bigot one more time, I think I will scream! I guess someone saying, "I hate black people." isn't bigoted? It's ridiculous. Of course stating how you feel can be bigoted. Juan Williams made a bigoted statement. He lost credibility for his job on NPR, but he obviously did not for his job on Fox News.

I'm not going to apply the term bigot to all people who have thoughts/feelings/opinions about a group of people, but I'd like for someone to say "Yes, I have these thoughts and a fear, I admit it." Then I'd like them to do some introspection into why they have these thoughts or ideas, where it came from, and is it rational or based in fact. There isn't anyone who can say they've never had a thought pop into their head that was inappropriate, but it is what we do once the thought is there that makes a difference.

Second to that I'd also like people to learn the difference between factual news and infotainment/opinion. I'm not sure if this is being taught in school but K-12 and higher education needs to put into curriculums how to do research and find sources, and that being skeptical is a good thing.

[MysticCat]

^^^ Co-sign. And co-sign KSig RC as well.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I've found this commentary from salon.com about Juan Williams being fired, and how there was no similar outcry for other firings rather interesting. Specifically it mentions other journalists who were fired, but their firing wasn't questioned, and also acknowledging the double standard for things said about Muslims as opposed to other groups.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...10/21/williams

One of the 'Shop guys on NPR's Tell Me More was absolutely outraged that basically you can get paid to be an Islamophobe. (And they've been discussing it on the NPR shows pretty neutrally IMO.)

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I'm not going to apply the term bigot to all people who have thoughts/feelings/opinions about a group of people, but I'd like for someone to say "Yes, I have these thoughts and a fear, I admit it." Then I'd like them to do some introspection into why they have these thoughts or ideas, where it came from, and is it rational or based in fact. There isn't anyone who can say they've never had a thought pop into their head that was inappropriate, but it is what we do once the thought is there that makes a difference.

The label sounds extreme, but it is prejudice on its face. Where is the line between prejudice and bigotry? I'm not sure there is one. He didn't have a random inappropriate thought, he stated that he feels fear whenever he sees 'Muslim-garbed' people at the airport. And that he assumes said people are 'Muslims first and foremost.' Those are irrational and prejudicial beliefs. And it goes beyond the "what pops into his head" when he comments on the first and foremost part. People who present themselves in such garb (and unless it's the dress of someone on the hajj, I'm not sure there's any such thing as Muslim garb, Arab, Persian, Indian, Sikh maybe, but not really 'Muslim garb') are not more Muslim than they are American in reality, but in his mind they are.

Second to that I'd also like people to learn the difference between factual news and infotainment/opinion. I'm not sure if this is being taught in school but K-12 and higher education needs to put into curriculums how to do research and find sources, and that being skeptical is a good thing.

Co-sign this.

[DrPhil]

Shepard Smith of Fox News was on The View this morning. He brilliantly highlighted the distinction between personal opinion and journalism. He said "I don't get to have personal opinions. I'm a journalist."

They kept trying to get him to personally weigh in on everything but he cleverly did not do so. He is close to Juan Williams and works with him through Fox News and I feel his The View stance is a lesson to Williams and others who don't know what "First Amendment" and "political correctness" mean.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Pretty sure that "one's feelings" very well make that person a bigot, if they are bigoted feelings.

Don't believe so.



Definitions of bigot on the Web and in my dictionary:

• a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
• A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot
• one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I don't see intolerance in either William's comments or Jackson's.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Don't believe so.




Definitions of bigot on the Web and in my dictionary:

• a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
• A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot
• one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I don't see intolerance in either William's comments or Jackson's.

But you do see that "one's feelings" (and expressed opinions) are what this dictionary definition (read: surface-level understanding of concepts) requires.

You happen to not think Williams' opinions were bigoted and others beg to differ. He was fired from NPR and given a 2mil gig with Fox News nonetheless.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Don't believe so.

You don't believe that bigoted feelings make a person a bigot? Or that Williams is a bigot? It seems insanely difficult for you to argue against the first (which was my point).

As for the second, you can at least make a sound argument. Let's try just the first definition, purely for academic purposes:

Definitions of bigot on the Web and in my dictionary:

• a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

Prejudice is plain - he has a preconception of what a "self-identifying" Muslim person would wear, and what that would mean. The only argument is over the term "intolerant" but you can clear that barrier easily if you use only denotation (which you're attempting to do to jigger the conversation in your favor). Here's how:

It is also clear that Williams believes his prejudgment is the correct one to make, as he clearly states over and over that he agrees with O'Reilly and implies (if he doesn't directly state) that this is a natural and normal consequence of past terror acts. That view will clearly not tolerate other, dissenting views - if one is correct, opposition views are incorrect.

You can continue to miss the forest for the trees, but "feelings" can be bigoted. You don't get a free pass for "feelings" just like you don't for opinions, thoughts, or random exhortations. None of this was under duress, none of this is taken out of context - bigoted feelings make you bigoted. It's nearly tautological, it's so plain.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

But you do see that "one's feelings" (and expressed opinions) are what this dictionary definition (read: surface-level understanding of concepts) requires.

You happen to not think Williams' opinions were bigoted and others beg to differ. He was fired from NPR and given a 2mil gig with Fox News nonetheless.

But you do also see that it requires intolerance as well. You can say what you like about William's but I do not see any intolerance in his statements before or after his firing. However if people want to consider Jesse Jackson and Juan Williams bigots for their statements then fine by me. I don't believe they are.

People have a tendency to bandy about the term "bigot" too loosely and it loses its meaning. Seems like a "bigot" is now someone who disagrees with the politically correct.