ITT We Discuss Theology

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It's funny because you and I have a similar faith upbringing on paper (add Catholic school to my resume, and subtract weekly confession - eek!) with very different results. I think the difference is that yours may have a had a repressive bend to it where my parents were never super strict, but then again I don't think they had to be with my sister and I. So I always saw Catholicism as a naturally occurring phenomenon in regard to how one lives. Like I said, this fascinates me!

This was more how I was raised as well. And it meant I've always looked positively on the religion itself. My reasons for leaving it have primarily been personal and/or disagreements with the hierarchy, not objection to the dogma or the cultural application of it.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It's funny because you and I have a similar faith upbringing on paper (add Catholic school to my resume, and subtract weekly confession - eek!) with very different results. I think the difference is that yours may have a had a repressive bend to it where my parents were never super strict, but then again I don't think they had to be with my sister and I. So I always saw Catholicism as a naturally occurring phenomenon in regard to how one lives. Like I said, this fascinates me!

I was sent to Catholic school through 5th grade inclusive. However, the public schools where I grew up are excellent, and my father reluctantly admitted that I would get a far better secular education there. (He himself attended Catholic schools up to and including college.) So I was enrolled in the public middle school and CCD starting in 6th grade. And weekly confession was expected (my father still goes every week) - even if I were not conscious of having sinned in the previous week, he instructed me to tell the priest that I had come for the grace of the sacrament.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This was more how I was raised as well. And it meant I've always looked positively on the religion itself. My reasons for leaving it have primarily been personal and/or disagreements with the hierarchy, not objection to the dogma or the cultural application of it.

My objections have been to both the hierarchy and the dogma.

~~~

I have two major problems with Catholicism. One is the inherent inequality of women and men. Women cannot be priests - if you want to devote your life to God, the highest position you can aspire to is a nun. Married women are expected to submit to their husbands (see Ephesians 5:22-24). The structure is set up so that women cannot be leaders. (Aside: This is why I am a Reform Jew and not an Orthodox Jew. Reform Judaism is egalitarian; Orthodox Judaism is definitely not. I belong to a congregation where both the rabbi and the president are women.)

The second is the prohibition against asking questions. The Catechism is full of questions, of course, but they all have neat pre-defined Vatican-approved answers. My parents always encouraged me to question the world around me and use the scientific method - except when it came to religion. I actually got kicked out of CCD for asking a question. When it came to religion, what the Vatican said, went. By contrast, Judaism has the Talmud, which is full of conflicting opinions.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I was sent to Catholic school through 5th grade inclusive. However, the public schools where I grew up are excellent, and my father reluctantly admitted that I would get a far better secular education there. (He himself attended Catholic schools up to and including college.) So I was enrolled in the public middle school and CCD starting in 6th grade. And weekly confession was expected (my father still goes every week) - even if I were not conscious of having sinned in the previous week, he instructed me to tell the priest that I had come for the grace of the sacrament.



My objections have been to both the hierarchy and the dogma.

~~~

I have two major problems with Catholicism. One is the inherent inequality of women and men. Women cannot be priests - if you want to devote your life to God, the highest position you can aspire to is a nun. Married women are expected to submit to their husbands (see Ephesians 5:22-24). The structure is set up so that women cannot be leaders. (Aside: This is why I am a Reform Jew and not an Orthodox Jew. Reform Judaism is egalitarian; Orthodox Judaism is definitely not. I belong to a congregation where both the rabbi and the president are women.)

The second is the prohibition against asking questions. The Catechism is full of questions, of course, but they all have neat pre-defined Vatican-approved answers. My parents always encouraged me to question the world around me and use the scientific method - except when it came to religion. I actually got kicked out of CCD for asking a question. When it came to religion, what the Vatican said, went. By contrast, Judaism has the Talmud, which is full of conflicting opinions.

I agree with you about the treatment of women and the equality of women in Reform Judaism is something I've always admired.

And I was not raised with a prohibition on asking questions. It's one of the things I liked so much about the Jesuits. I do believe that that aspect has a lot more about where you were raised and the priests/nuns/lay people involved in teaching.

I can't quite phrase what I mean about the objections I have very well. the beliefs, no problem per se, i always questioned but there's nothing I find "wrong." The attitude of the hierarchy towards abuse victims is a huge problem and the social teachings about sexuality, in particular among other things are also a big problem for me. The treatment of women was almost an afterthought, and "submission" was never much of a value in our diocese/schools/etc. I always objected to the idea that I couldn't be a priest but other than that I was not treated nor expected to act differently as a woman than a man.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And I was not raised with a prohibition on asking questions. It's one of the things I liked so much about the Jesuits. I do believe that that aspect has a lot more about where you were raised and the priests/nuns/lay people involved in teaching.

And the parents.

I'm more than happy to share the story of how I got kicked out of CCD. I was in 7th grade. We were given an assignment - we were given a list of saints and told to choose one and write a paper on him/her. One of the "saints" on the list was Sarah. I asked the teacher, "Is Sarah a saint? I thought she was a matriarch." (I was right.) So the teacher chewed me out for questioning her. How dare I question an authority figure blah blah blah. She got the head of the CCD program into the classroom to berate me. Sister Peggy chewed me out in front of my classmates, formally ejected me from CCD, and then went on to berate my father on the phone (she called him "young man" and he had at least 5 years on her).

So the pastor had my father teach me from the catechism for the remainder of the academic year. And my parents and I investigated a nearby parish. We went to Mass there for a couple of months, including Easter. We were on the point of calling the parish office to enroll as parishioners when we learned that Sister Peggy was being transferred to our potential new parish as head of CCD. We went back to the old parish so fast we left skid marks.

The whole experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I seriously doubted whether I should get confirmed. I went through with it largely because I knew I'd be in for a world of pain if I didn't. It was the beginning of the end of my being a Catholic.

And then my life led me to Judaism. And here I am.