Israeli soldier post pics of herself and Palestinian prisoners on where? FACEBOOK

[Chocoholic]

I won't disagree that it was stupid on her part. However, I have to question why we hold Israel to a much higher standard than the Muslim world, or anyone else for that matter.

Remember, the Iraqis celebrated by hanging the multilated, burned corpses of Americans off a bridge in Fallujah and the world didn't even flinch! This female IDF solider smiles with "live" blindfolded soliders and you never hear the end of it.

Women in the IDF serve side-by-side with their male counterparts, particularly in combat and border troops. My nephew served with the Oketz Unit (dog unit) and we later learned his unit was one of the first in Gaza with their bomb sniffing dogs.

And to the another poster who thought that Jerusalem isn't as progressive as Tel Aviv, it is, it's an international city where Jews, Christians and Arabs co-exist in contiguous neighborhoods. There are discos, restaurants etc, and it's like many other metro cities. People have this idea due to a small orthodox Jewish population that the entire city is like the Mea Sharim neighborhood, when it's not. Israel is more secular than it is religious.

Here's a fun video of Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ULtg...eature=related

[tri deezy]

Originally Posted by Chocoholic

And to the another poster who thought that Jerusalem isn't as progressive as Tel Aviv, it is, it's an international city where Jews, Christians and Arabs co-exist in contiguous neighborhoods. There are discos, restaurants etc, and it's like many other metro cities. People have this idea due to a small orthodox Jewish population that the entire city is like the Mea Sharim neighborhood, when it's not. Israel is more secular than it is religious.

Here's a fun video of Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ULtglogZbR8&feature=related

I haven't been to the homeland yet Also, that video is the cutest thing ever! Love it!

[Chocoholic]

I haven't been to the homeland yet Also, that video is the cutest thing ever! Love it!

You should go if you get the chance, many people feel an incredible connection between the neshama and the land. You might like this video too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=iTXi...eature=related

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Chocoholic

I won't disagree that it was stupid on her part. However, I have to question why we hold Israel to a much higher standard than the Muslim world, or anyone else for that matter.

Remember, the Iraqis celebrated by hanging the multilated, burned corpses of Americans off a bridge in Fallujah and the world didn't even flinch! This female IDF solider smiles with "live" blindfolded soliders and you never hear the end of it.

]

They claim the moral high ground, we back them in part because of it, therefore they should live up to it. If they'd rather be compared with and treated like those Iraqis, then they can choose that route instead.

[Chocoholic]

They claim the moral high ground, we back them in part because of it, therefore they should live up to it. If they'd rather be compared with and treated like those Iraqis, then they can choose that route instead.

I disagree. They do not claim a moral high ground, we share the same values, namely; the value of a human life - these are Judeo-Christian values. Furthermore, the US supports Israel due to the economic and strategic asset Israel provides. Israel keeps US manufacturers like Grumman, Boeing etc, in business. That's what our aid does, it insures they buy American planes, helicopters and weapons, thereby, keeping Uncle Joe employed. US-Israel have numerous bi-lateral contracts and mutual interests, Google, the joint projects being developed. American technological companies, such as Motorola in Israel, and medical research being done with Americans notwithstanding.

I don't think Israelis will behave like extremist militants, anymore than the US will - that's not to say there won't be a few individuals who act alone. And that's what we unfortunately remember.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Chocoholic

I disagree. They do not claim a moral high ground, we share the same values, namely; the value of a human life - these are Judeo-Christian values.

Those are Islamic values too, just for the record. And it's not just about the value of life, it's about respecting human beings. Even prisoners. Saying that this soldier should not be criticized, or that people should lay off because well at least she's not cheering for dead Americans is a false comparison. Israel most certainly claims to be in the right, and they claim to be "better" than their enemies. That means acting like it.

Furthermore, the US supports Israel due to the economic and strategic asset Israel provides. Israel keeps US manufacturers like Grumman, Boeing etc, in business. That's what our aid does, it insures they buy American planes, helicopters and weapons, thereby, keeping Uncle Joe employed. US-Israel have numerous bi-lateral contracts and mutual interests, Google, the joint projects being developed. American technological companies, such as Motorola in Israel, and medical research being done with Americans notwithstanding.

And some Christian conservatives only support Israel because they want them to rebuild the Temple so Jesus can come again. If that's all our money's going towards, why don't we just buy planes straight from Boeing. (And no, those companies wouldn't all go out of business without Israel.)

I don't think Israelis will behave like extremist militants, anymore than the US will - that's not to say there won't be a few individuals who act alone. And that's what we unfortunately remember.

You're not saying anything that people don't know. No one's saying to draw and quarter this soldier, just that it was wrong and she should be (or should have been) punished appropriately.

And if the Israelis and Americans alike remembered that extremist militants did not represent the greater whole.. well we'd be doing a hell of a lot better.

[Chocoholic]

it's about respecting human beings. Even prisoners.

Agreed, but I've never considered the beheading of American prisoners and putting these videos on Arab television/YouTube, respectful. That "comparison" I'll never be able to erase from my memory; if you saw one, you might understand.

Furthermore, I've stated the IDF soldier's actions were stupid. The IDF condemned her actions, launched an investigation and provided all the photos as part of that investigation, which is still ongoing.

Those are Islamic values too, just for the record.

Your argument is less than compelling considering; suicide bombings, human shields, stoning/honor killings, mothers' strapping bombs on their babies, martyrdom and martyrdom reparations. I'm not saying there aren't peaceful Muslims, because there certainly are. I'm saying some of the tenets and specious doctrine embraced/interpreted as fundamentals of Islam are heinous and most disturbing.

This is not anomalous behavior exclusive to a few Islamic radicals. It's found in the government, ruling powers, kingdoms of some Islamic/Arab countries. I trust you heard of Wahhabism which is the dominant sect in Saudi Arabia? Wahhabism is a literal interpretation of the Quran, its Creed provides for a military conscription for war against the infidel. This is why Osama bin Ladin has been popular; having remained protected and elusive from capture. And while the Saudi Government condemned bin Laden, they never condemned his message - until that happens, expect the brutality to continue unabated.

Political Islam and/or Islamic puritanism; is the God given authority which the Taliban (Hamas, al Qaeda, Hezbollah et al) uses as a license to kill in the name of allah. Whether infidel, Shi'as or peaceful, moderate/liberal Muslims, they've all been exposed to this Islamic Muharib (taking a human life to prevent the corruption of the faith). Just ask the Islamic Studies Professor whose house was bombed for befriending "infidels".

Here's an Arab explaining (and showing) why Hamas killed Palestinians - their own people - at a wedding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dK-DYB6YgU8&feature=fvw

And some Christian conservatives only support Israel because they want them to rebuild the Temple so Jesus can come again.

Israel is also the Holy Land to Christians who believe that Jesus lived and walked there. I've never heard a Christian say, we're going to drive the Jews into the sea, or Death to the Jews! No, they co-exist peacefully.

If that's all our money's going towards, why don't we just buy planes straight from Boeing.

Ok, I can put you down for how many F-16's?? Israel has over 300, surely you'll take at least 2.

(And no, those companies wouldn't all go out of business without Israel.)

That's some leap! I said these bi-lateral contracts keep Americans employed and in this economy most would agree, that's a good thing. You might be surprised to learn that the US is using Israeli arms in Iraq too - I recall one is a mortar launcher. Both countries pursue interests in several joint projects.

And if the Israelis and Americans alike remembered that extremist militants did not represent the greater whole.. well we'd be doing a hell of a lot better.

And the crazies might take that, as tacit approval...

[Drolefille]

Dear lord why did you screw with the font.

Originally Posted by Chocoholic

Agreed, but I've never considered the beheading of American prisoners and putting these videos on Arab television/YouTube, respectful. That "comparison" I'll never be able to erase from my memory; if you saw one, you might understand.

Wow. Way to build that strawman and knock it right down.
In this paragraph you have assumed that a)someone might consider those videos respectful, b) it's natural to compare that to this situation, c) that I've never viewed those videos and d) that if I did see those videos, I'd agree with you. Sorry. You're wrong on all 4 counts.

Furthermore, I've stated the IDF soldier's actions were stupid. The IDF condemned her actions, launched an investigation and provided all the photos as part of that investigation, which is still ongoing.

Good we're on the same page here.

Your argument is less than compelling considering; suicide bombings, human shields, stoning/honor killings, mothers' strapping bombs on their babies, martyrdom and martyrdom reparations. I'm not saying there aren't peaceful Muslims, because there certainly are. I'm saying some of the tenets and specious doctrine embraced/interpreted as fundamentals of Islam are heinous and most disturbing.

Suicide bombings - specifically prohibited by Islam, politically motivated with religion mostly serving as the rallying cry.
Human Shields - Military/political tactic - used by non-Muslims
Stoning/Honor Killings - Something that is in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures too (and was done, frequently), currently in place and enforced more by cultural forces than purely religious ones. That is, not ever Muslim country or family would even consider the idea, but residents of and immigrants from certain countries see it as normal. It was happening there before Islam got there.
"Mother's strapping bombs on their babies" - this isn't a few radicals? Really?

You're looking at things that represent extremists and then claiming that they're not extreme. Islam isn't why people are bombing buses in Israel. Those people see it as their only method of fighting since they don't have armies. They're wrong to say the very least but that's what's in their head. Individuals might be religiously motivated but that doesn't make them representatives of Islam any more than abortion doctor killers are representative of Christianity.

This is not anomalous behavior exclusive to a few Islamic radicals. It's found in the government, ruling powers, kingdoms of some Islamic/Arab countries.

Some.. So SOME radicals
Out of over 1 billion Muslims, you don't think that this is a small percentage?

I trust you heard of Wahhabism which is the dominant sect in Saudi Arabia? Wahhabism is a literal interpretation of the Quran, its Creed provides for a military conscription for war against the infidel.

And just like a literal interpretation of the Bible is ineffective and would allow you to own slaves, forbid you from wearing mixed fabrics, stone women for adultery if she was raped in a city and didn't cry out loud enough (but not in the country where they couldn't hear her), and tell you the Earth was only several thousand years old, a literal interpretation of the Koran is not particularly a valid one.

Wahhabism is fairly extreme as far as beliefs go, and one that persecutes women, for example. However, Saudi Arabia doesn't have some of the strife of other countries because of the wealth and culture of the country itself- they will always have religious "tourism" money even if the oil runs out - not because of its brand of Islam.

This is why Osama bin Ladin has been popular; having remained protected and elusive from capture. And while the Saudi Government condemned bin Laden, they never condemned his message - until that happens, expect the brutality to continue unabated.

Bin Ladin is actually pissed off at the Saudis for allowing Americans in. There's a reason he's not living there despite that being his country of origin. So you think that if the Saudi government specifically condemned his "message" we'd capture him tomorrow?

Political Islam and/or Islamic puritanism; is the God given authority which the Taliban (Hamas, al Qaeda, Hezbollah et al) uses as a license to kill in the name of allah. Whether infidel, Shi'as or peaceful, moderate/liberal Muslims, they've all been exposed to this Islamic Muharib (taking a human life to prevent the corruption of the faith). Just ask the Islamic Studies Professor whose house was bombed for befriending "infidels".

Evil people use religion, like they use any belief system, to justify their acts and to try to get others to follow them. Sometimes those evil people are crazy and sometimes they're intentionally manipulative. There is a huge history of Christian aggression based on then killing the pagans/infidels/heathens/etc. There is biblical documentation of the Hebrews killing tribes and cities of people because God told them to.

People kill "in the name" of a lot of things.

And find an unbiased source for a video next time if you want me to watch it.

Israel is also the Holy Land to Christians who believe that Jesus lived and walked there. I've never heard a Christian say, we're going to drive the Jews into the sea, or Death to the Jews! No, they co-exist peacefully.

Right, if we're following my point that some Christians only support Israel so they can make Jesus come again, they wouldn't want to kill the Jews, they just want the Jews to kill the Muslims and rebuild the Temple so big JC will come back and send the Jews to hell for not being Christians.

Also, you don't think there are Palestinian Christians who have said that? Or are you conflating Arabs and Muslims again? Perhaps other Christians haven't said that in Israel because they aren't the ones being killed in return.

(Also, pretty much every "the Jews run Hollywood/Washington/the world" anti-Semitic rambling from the US has been said by a Christian IME)

Ok, I can put you down for how many F-16's?? Israel has over 300, surely you'll take at least 2.

Bad logic. If my tax money bought those 300 planes over there, we could easily buy them over here instead.

That's some leap! I said these bi-lateral contracts keep Americans employed and in this economy most would agree, that's a good thing. You might be surprised to learn that the US is using Israeli arms in Iraq too - I recall one is a mortar launcher. Both countries pursue interests in several joint projects.

Assuming that those companies would go out of business because we stopped giving Israel aid is some leap. Your claim was that we're giving Israel money and they're just spending it on American things. That's not a good reason to keep giving it to them. There probably are good reasons to give it to them, but you provided a very bad one.

I'm not surprised at all, I just don't care. Why wouldn't we buy arms from someone else if they made good ones?

And the crazies might take that, as tacit approval...

The "crazies" will twist whatever you do into supporting their worldview. So you do the right thing no matter what (build Park51 in NYC, treat all prisoners with respect, treat all humans with respect, and so on) and then you haven't let terrorism compromise your values. Which means you win.

[Chocoholic]

Dear lord why did you screw with the font.

I like a larger font so I don't have to sit on top of my laptop just to see... I break so many that way. lol

In this paragraph you have assumed that a)someone might consider those videos respectful, b) it's natural to compare that to this situation, c) that I've never viewed those videos and d) that if I did see those videos, I'd agree with you. Sorry. You're wrong on all 4 counts.

I was responding to a comment you made earlier; essentially, respect should be given to all prisoners. And in a perfect world that would happen – however, we don’t live in a perfect world. We could give Islamic prisoners the key to Emerald City, and the outcome won’t change - militant beheadings shall continue as justifiable. Islamic militants need rehab and education, not candy and flowers.

Suicide bombings - specifically prohibited by Islam, politically motivated with religion mostly serving as the rallying cry.

Specifically prohibited by Islam, care to cite your source?

Human Shields - Military/political tactic - used by non-Muslims

Red herring. Specifically used by muslims in Gaza knowing the IDF wouldn’t shoot at children.

Stoning/Honor Killings - Something that is in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures too (and was done, frequently), currently in place and enforced more by cultural forces than purely religious ones. That is, not ever Muslim country or family would even consider the idea, but residents of and immigrants from certain countries see it as normal. It was happening there before Islam got there.

Yes and this archaic practice is still ONLY in use by those in Muslim countries or where Muslims are practicing Shaira Law - like the US and UK. Google honor killings.

"Mother's strapping bombs on their babies" - this isn't a few radicals? Really?

One mother is more than enough and imo, has no business having children. It’s child abuse. In this country that woman would lose her children and most likely prosecuted for child endangerment.

Those people see it as their only method of fighting since they don't have armies.

They "don't have" armies?!? Did I read that correctly? Regardless, of what you think of their armies - they have armies. You should really take a trip... I bet you think that Palestinians are living in tents, with nothing; not even running water, right?

Individuals might be religiously motivated but that doesn't make them representatives of Islam any more than abortion doctor killers are representative of Christianity.

More red herrings. One lone nut job vs. nut jobs from the fastest growing religion in the US (and worldwide) – exponentially increases the number of nut jobs. Period.

Some.. So SOME radicals
Out of over 1 billion Muslims, you don't think that this is a small percentage?

Not when their respective governments embrace the doctrine, i.e., Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, now you have an entire country of wahhabism acceptance/adherence. No religious freedom there.

And just like a literal interpretation of the Bible is ineffective and would allow you to own slaves, forbid you from wearing mixed fabrics, stone women for adultery if she was raped in a city and didn't cry out loud enough (but not in the country where they couldn't hear her), and tell you the Earth was only several thousand years old, a literal interpretation of the Koran is not particularly a valid one.

Once again, you fail to acknowledge that the bible doesn't make the laws of this country. Most acknowledge it as a moral code written two-thousand years ago. You certainly wouldn't walk into family court in this country argue one party committed adultry, file a motion for contempt and hope the court orders they be stoned to death. The difference being is that Islamic law is a comprehensive system covering the relationship with allah, family, money, society and country - given and governed by allah.

Wahhabism is fairly extreme as far as beliefs go, and one that persecutes women, for example. However, Saudi Arabia doesn't have some of the strife of other countries because of the wealth and culture of the country itself- they will always have religious "tourism" money even if the oil runs out - not because of its brand of Islam.

You’re kidding right? It’s evident to me you know nothing of Sharia Law and the oppressive nature of wahhabi – Saudi women cannot vote, be educated like their male counterparts, they can’t drive, they have to have a familial/guardian male with them at all times, they’ve covered from head to toe in njib and female children are married off. Women cannot chose who they'll marry. Saudi Arabia is globally ranked as 130th out of 136th counties in terms of human rights violations. If you don’t see that as strife against women – I don’t think we can continue this conversation. Please read on. http://www.islamfortoday.com/ummzaid06.htm

Bin Ladin is actually pissed off at the Saudis for allowing Americans in. There's a reason he's not living there despite that being his country of origin. So you think that if the Saudi government specifically condemned his "message" we'd capture him tomorrow?

Is that what you understood from my post?

Evil people use religion, like they use any belief system, to justify their acts and to try to get others to follow them.

Ah, so you feel Islam is evil.

And find an unbiased source for a video next time if you want me to watch it.

LOL! It was a video made by an Arab Christian!

Right, if we're following my point that some Christians only support Israel so they can make Jesus come again, they wouldn't want to kill the Jews, they just want the Jews to kill the Muslims and rebuild the Temple so big JC will come back and send the Jews to hell for not being Christians.

I’m not buying that nonsense.

Also, you don't think there are Palestinian Christians who have said that? Or are you conflating Arabs and Muslims again? Perhaps other Christians haven't said that in Israel because they aren't the ones being killed in return.

I conflated no such thing. There are Mizrahim (Jews kicked out of Arab countries), Christian Arabs etc –

(Also, pretty much every "the Jews run Hollywood/Washington/the world" anti-Semitic rambling from the US has been said by a Christian IME)

Yes, I generally glean that kind of information from “Stormfront” …

Bad logic. If my tax money bought those 300 planes over there, we could easily buy them over here instead.

LOL! Yes, because your contribution has such military strategic value… Just how large is your yard and where exactly is it.

Assuming that those companies would go out of business because we stopped giving Israel aid is some leap. Your claim was that we're giving Israel money and they're just spending it on American things.

I’m sorry that’s how you interpreted my comments and that you’re not familiar with foreign aid in the ME – most clamor about how their tax dollars are given just to Israel, when they know nothing about the strings attached and the quid pro quo of these agreements and the congressional approval of said deals. Egypt has no strings attached, theirs is strictly economic aid. But I did hear that the US will start selling Egypt and the Saudis military weaponry, planes etc. It’s nice to know we still make something…

The "crazies" will twist whatever you do into supporting their worldview. So you do the right thing no matter what (build Park51 in NYC, treat all prisoners with respect, treat all humans with respect, and so on) and then you haven't let terrorism compromise your values.

Park51 is entirely separate argument – one I don’t oppose due to the first amendment argument. But I’d hate to see some other nutjob blow that thing up and harm innocent NY’ers again, in the process.

Which means you win

I'm somewhat amused by this remark. There's a certain idealistic naiviete to it. So you both maintain you both have won?

[FHwku]

Originally Posted by Chocoholic

Here's a fun video of Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ULtg...eature=related

"oy" is just "yo" backwards

lol

[Chocoholic]

"oy" is just "yo" backwards

I love it, that makes me chuckle too!