Feds to file lawsuit over Arizona immigration law - Page 9

Psi U MC Vito · #**121** 07-08-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not speaking English is commonly associated with being illegally here. Smelling like marijuana is commonly associated with being under the influence or in possession. Smelling like whiskey is associated with being drunk.

So my grandparents who are natural born American citizens have to worry about being considered illegal because they don't speak English? If fluency in the English language was required, then I can see it being used as probable cause. But it is not. If using "they don't speak English" is sufficient as probable cause, then it is providing different levels or justice to different populations.

ETA:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

It doesn't have to. Correlation doesn't have to definitely mean the crime is afoot, it just has to lead to a reasonable suspicion. If you've encountered someone who doesn't speak English and doesn't have identification or insurance, you definitely can have the reasonable belief that this person is illegal and can investigate whether they are.

Well yes that is true. But that if you pulled over a car for some reason. That does not equal thinking somebody might be illegal and stopping them asking for proof of citizenship, which a lot of people don't even carry with them on a day to day basis.

Kevin · #**122** 07-08-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

So my grandparents who are natural born American citizens have to worry about being considered illegal because they don't speak English? If fluency in the English language was required, then I can see it being used as probable cause. But it is not. If using "they don't speak English" is sufficient as probable cause, then it is providing different levels or justice to different populations.

I really don't feel sorry for anyone who lives here and doesn't speak the language. Sorry. That's a choice, and if you choose that, sometimes it sucks to be you.

Quote:

Well yes that is true. But that if you pulled over a car for some reason. That does not equal thinking somebody might be illegal and stopping them asking for proof of citizenship, which a lot of people don't even carry with them on a day to day basis.

The officer would have to have a reason to pull over the car first, e.g., speeding, then he would have to obtain probable cause to investigate citizenship, not just because he saw some brown folks in a car.

DaemonSeid · #**123** 07-08-2010, 05:27 PM

Kids....just remember a Hispanic man who was robbed of his things who can't speak Ingrish is probably an illegal!!! ;-)

Psi U MC Vito · #**124** 07-08-2010, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I really don't feel sorry for anyone who lives here and doesn't speak the language. Sorry. That's a choice, and if you choose that, sometimes it sucks to be you.

I'm at a lost for words.

Quote:

The officer would have to have a reason to pull over the car first, e.g., speeding, then he would have to obtain probable cause to investigate citizenship, not just because he saw some brown folks in a car.

Yes I even said as much. It's not the same as saying "I suspect he might be illegal, let me ask him for proof of citizenship"

Kevin · #**125** 07-08-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Kids....just remember a Hispanic man who was robbed of his things who can't speak Ingrish is probably an illegal!!! ;-)

No ID and no English? Yeah, that'd probably be enough.

DrPhil · #**126** 07-08-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I really don't feel sorry for anyone who lives here and doesn't speak the language. Sorry. That's a choice, and if you choose that, sometimes it sucks to be you.

Personal opinions are whatever but they don't have to translate to the law. That's the gist of this discussion. Many laws have moral, religious, and opinion-based foundations and it's okay to critique those foundations and how these laws are applied.

I have an issue with people who live here and do not speak at least basic English. I feel the same way about Americans who move overseas for years or to live permanently. I don't know if that's a citizenship/immigration issue. Either way, a lot of Americans who move overseas find English speaking communities and resources rather than really learning the foreign language in order to have a full foreign language conversation. That's the same thing that many ESL people do in America.

DrPhil · #**127** 07-08-2010, 06:09 PM

I say, the bridge is over, the bridge is over, biddy-bye-bye!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over, hey, hey!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over, biddy-bye-bye!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over

AOII Angel · #**128** 07-08-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Nanners...a warning...do not engage...this is a former GC member who keeps coming back like herpes. They will be banned soon.

Ha ha...GC and herpes. They go hand in hand! (GC is medical abbreviation for Gonorrhea.) Max is the gift that keeps on giving when you really want him to stop.

starang21 · #**129** 07-08-2010, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Yes I even said as much. It's not the same as saying "I suspect he might be illegal, let me ask him for proof of citizenship"

well that's what's required per HB2162. you can only ask for proof of legal residency while enforcing another law.

i feel no pity for folks who choose not to learn the language, either.

starang21 · #**130** 07-08-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Oh man, don't get me started on Americans who can't speak English. As I learned during my brief flirtation with Orthodox Judaism, there are entire TOWNS!!!! of Hasidic Jews who speak very little, if any, English. They know basic commercial English but most of the time speak Yiddish and only Yiddish. There's no need for them to speak English, since they don't go in the mainstream world.

can't =/= won't

Psi U MC Vito · #**131** 07-09-2010, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starang21

well that's what's required per HB2162. you can only ask for proof of legal residency while enforcing another law.

i feel no pity for folks who choose not to learn the language, either.

WHY!!! It is their choice. You think that punishing them for making one you don't agree with is the right thing to do?

starang21 · #**132** 07-09-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It is there choice.

hence i don't feel pity for them. they obviously feel it's not important to be able to communicate with those around them.

DrPhil · #**133** 07-09-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I say, the bridge is over, the bridge is over, biddy-bye-bye!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over, hey, hey!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over, biddy-bye-bye!
The bridge is over, the bridge is over

Well, I guess the bridge(kid) is over.

AOII Angel · #**134** 07-09-2010, 09:42 AM

Everyone forgets that a true democracy protects the minority from the majority and doesn't just equal majority rules.

WaxOff · #**135** 07-10-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I really don't feel sorry for anyone who lives here and doesn't speak the language. Sorry. That's a choice, and if you choose that, sometimes it sucks to be you.

English, especially American English, is one of the hardest languages to learn. Ever wonder why we're forced to take 13+ years of it in school? Add in the fact that some people don't have the ability or the discipline to learn a second language, let alone a difficult one. Hell, most people that took all 13+ years of it can't speak or write it properly.