After Several Years: What Do You Think of the New Release Figures?

[Splash]

Actually by inviting Rachel back, she has a chance to change the sorority's mind.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

There's no one for you to feel bad for. No PNM knows for sure why she's not invited back, and they're aware that some chapters are more competitive than others. Ideally they know that some chapters will cut more heavily than others. There are very few PNMs who this will hurt, and those are people who refuse to consider another chapter after losing out on Sorority A. That means it's the PNM's choice, for better or for worse, not to continue with recruitment or accept a bid.

It seems to me that the general opinion is that the top groups are going to have the same pledge class with or without RFM. This is not the case because of the girls I am talking about who change minds. These are the girls I feel bad for. This is the PNM's it will hurt and no it is not just the girls that would only accept a bid to sorority A. That may be their number 1 preference though.

If you want to think I'm a troll for past behavior that I've already recanted, then fine. You don't have to talk to me you know, but for the record, I've been nothing but polite and respectful to you.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

Actually by inviting Rachel back, she has a chance to change the sorority's mind.

No, Rachel is standing in for a PNM who, for whatever reason - grades, money, looks, annoying-ness - would never make it into that sorority. You have to invite back a whole party of girls, not just one.

It seems to me that the general opinion is that the top groups are going to have the same pledge class with or without RFM. This is not the case because of the girls I am talking about who change minds. These are the girls I feel bad for. This is the PNM's it will hurt and no it is not just the girls that would only accept a bid to sorority A. That may be their number 1 preference though.

They will have the same number of girls. They will likely have the same pledge class. They might have one PNM change their mind. You're playing in hypotheticals and talking about them like they are absolutes. I'm talking averages and probabilities.

How is a PNM who gets a bid to another chapter hurt? Many don't get their first choice. And most are happy with their bid. So.... who loses again?

If you want to think I'm a troll for past behavior that I've already recanted, then fine. You don't have to talk to me you know, but for the record, I've been nothing but polite and respectful to you.

No, I mostly think you're focused on Little Suzie because she was you. And that somehow RFM would have changed your fate. (Or someone close to you) and you seem to be incapable of looking at the Greek system, even on your own campus. Feel bad for Suzie all you like. To Greeks as a whole, her ability to change A's mind doesn't matter.

Also at the bolded.

[Splash]

If they weren't using RFM they would get to invite back a certain number of girls. That number minus the girls they would cut if they did use RFM are the ones who get the second chance, not girls that would be cut after first round without RFM.

They will still have the same number of girls in the pledge class. I have never denied that. They likely will not have the EXACT SAME pledge class. How similar (whether it is identical or far different) probably depends on the school a lot and other factors. This whole example is hypothetical is it not? The only absolute I am saying is that there will definitinely be situations where a girl normally cut after first round due to RFM would end up with a bid to that sorority.

As for the PNM getting a bid to another sorority, she's not getting her first choice which she might have gotten.

I definitely wasn't Susie seeing that I got my first choice. I do know people that I feel bad for but I'm not thinking of anyone in particular at the moment. How exactly am I incapable of looking at the Greek system on my or any campus? Please be specific, I'd like to know. And please don't speak for the entire Greek community by saying that her changing their mind doesn't matter. You and a lot of this board agree but I am part of the Greek community and I think it matters. Besides it's ironic that everyone on this board is all for the sorority being able to change the mind of the PNM and win her over but not the other way around. I know how recruitment works but that's not mutual.

And what is wrong with what I said that you bolded? You are dead set in thinking that I am a troll yet you continue to give me thought out responses.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

If they weren't using RFM they would get to invite back a certain number of girls. That number minus the girls they would cut if they did use RFM are the ones who get the second chance, not girls that would be cut after first round without RFM.

So only some people get should second chances? Why shouldn't those people who get cut after the first round w/o RFM get second chances? Why are the people who get cut with RFM more deserving than the ones who get cut without it?

They will still have the same number of girls in the pledge class. I have never denied that. They likely will not have the EXACT SAME pledge class. How similar (whether it is identical or far different) probably depends on the school a lot and other factors. This whole example is hypothetical is it not? The only absolute I am saying is that there will definitinely be situations where a girl normally cut after first round due to RFM would end up with a bid to that sorority.

Sure, but they're rare. There would be more situations where a girl wouldn't get a bid at all. Which is preferable?

As for the PNM getting a bid to another sorority, she's not getting her first choice which she might have gotten.

Happens to a lot of people. If most are happy, why is that considered something 'bad'?

I definitely wasn't Susie seeing that I got my first choice. I do know people that I feel bad for but I'm not thinking of anyone in particular at the moment. How exactly am I incapable of looking at the Greek system on my or any campus? Please be specific, I'd like to know. And please don't speak for the entire Greek community by saying that her changing their mind doesn't matter. You and a lot of this board agree but I am part of the Greek community and I think it matters. Besides it's ironic that everyone on this board is all for the sorority being able to change the mind of the PNM and win her over but not the other way around. I know how recruitment works but that's not mutual.

Because you are focused on the rare individual instead of the community as a whole. The PNMs don't know why they're cut, so they don't know if they had a "chance" or not. This maximizes every PNM's options, leads to more PNMs getting bids and helps every chapter reach quota. It's not a perfect system, but what is?

It's not about changing the sorority's mind because odds are the sorority doesn't hate her, they just like X number of people better, and out of that X only Y will come to pref and then 1/2Y (or 1/3Y or whatever) will get bids. If Suzie wants to be in that number she's the same chance as everyone else (she can't control what chapters pre-make bid lists etc.). Being the applicant to something, whether a sorority, a job, or a school means that you're not the one in control of the system. If a job invites the top 3 candidates for interview, someone's always going to be number 4.

And what is wrong with what I said that you bolded? You are dead set in thinking that I am a troll yet you continue to give me thought out responses.

It's childish.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

So only some people get should second chances? Why shouldn't those people who get cut after the first round w/o RFM get second chances? Why are the people who get cut with RFM more deserving than the ones who get cut without it?

They have to make some cuts, even if all the sororities cut the same number each day

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Sure, but they're rare. There would be more situations where a girl wouldn't get a bid at all. Which is preferable?

They're not always rare. It depends on a lot of things. Sometimes they could be nonexistant. Sometimes they could be more common. I don't have an opinion on which is preferable.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Happens to a lot of people. If most are happy, why is that considered something 'bad'?

Preferences exist in sorority recruitment. Just because you don't get your first choice doesn't mean it's not preferred. You seem to be saying preferences don't matter since they can be happy anyway.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Because you are focused on the rare individual instead of the community as a whole. The PNMs don't know why they're cut, so they don't know if they had a "chance" or not. This maximizes every PNM's options, leads to more PNMs getting bids and helps every chapter reach quota. It's not a perfect system, but what is?

Yes I am commenting on a particular part of this discussion, the PNMs who lose out. I really haven't said much at all about the whole community and that doesn't mean I'm not looking at it. I don't see how it matters whether the PNMs know or not, unless you're saying "they don't know so it doesn't matter if one of them gets screwed over". This maximizes many PNMs options but in some circustances which I have mentioned it takes an option away.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's not about changing the sorority's mind because odds are the sorority doesn't hate her, they just like X number of people better, and out of that X only Y will come to pref and then 1/2Y (or 1/3Y or whatever) will get bids. If Suzie wants to be in that number she's the same chance as everyone else (she can't control what chapters pre-make bid lists etc.). Being the applicant to something, whether a sorority, a job, or a school means that you're not the one in control of the system. If a job invites the top 3 candidates for interview, someone's always going to be number 4.

I doubt the sorority hates her. I understand what you're saying but a large part of recruitment is to level the playing field. Sororities can make lists prior to recruitment all they like just as PNMs have preferences, but the sororities should be open to the possibility that a PNM could change their mind about what they initially thought.

[Splash]

To clarify, I think there are shortcomings no matter what system is employed. I am simply mentioning one of these shortcomings (PNMs getting a bid to a chapter they would have been cut from early on due to RFM). It is not justified just because the worst case scenario of many PNMs going bidless is worse. It might be the reason that they decide to use RFM instead of not using them but Susie not getting her top choice when she would have still isn't good.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Splash

If they weren't using RFM they would get to invite back a certain number of girls. That number minus the girls they would cut if they did use RFM are the ones who get the second chance, not girls that would be cut after first round without RFM.

They will still have the same number of girls in the pledge class. I have never denied that. They likely will not have the EXACT SAME pledge class. How similar (whether it is identical or far different) probably depends on the school a lot and other factors. This whole example is hypothetical is it not? The only absolute I am saying is that there will definitinely be situations where a girl normally cut after first round due to RFM would end up with a bid to that sorority.

As for the PNM getting a bid to another sorority, she's not getting her first choice which she might have gotten.

I definitely wasn't Susie seeing that I got my first choice. I do know people that I feel bad for but I'm not thinking of anyone in particular at the moment. How exactly am I incapable of looking at the Greek system on my or any campus? Please be specific, I'd like to know. And please don't speak for the entire Greek community by saying that her changing their mind doesn't matter. You and a lot of this board agree but I am part of the Greek community and I think it matters. Besides it's ironic that everyone on this board is all for the sorority being able to change the mind of the PNM and win her over but not the other way around. I know how recruitment works but that's not mutual.

And what is wrong with what I said that you bolded? You are dead set in thinking that I am a troll yet you continue to give me thought out responses.

Yeah, we get it, someone somewhere could have gotten into her dream sorority IF she'd just gotten that extra chance to impress the group in Round 2. But not likely. If you get cut at Round 1, you are in the bottom basement of their list. Maybe you'd be able to change their mind at the borderline of Round 2/3 but earlier than that, the probabilities are very low.

The converse to letting these popular groups string along large groups of girls they are completely uninterested in is that to keep going back to "Top Chapter", they have to let go one of the chapters that may be actually willing to give them a bid. So when "Top Chapter" finally does release them, as is inevitable, they have fewer chapters to chose from in the pool that is actually interested in calling these women sisters.

You have to look at these things from both sides. I'll take a Suzie with a broken heart over being cut from "Top Chapter" over more women ending up bidless anyday.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The converse to letting these popular groups string along large groups of girls they are completely uninterested in is that to keep going back to "Top Chapter", they have to let go one of the chapters that may be actually willing to give them a bid. So when "Top Chapter" finally does release them, as is inevitable, they have fewer chapters to chose from in the pool that is actually interested in calling these women sisters.

Thank you. Yes. Exactly.

You can either get real, or you can stay in fantasy-land and lose out on being Greek at all. And as you said - even if the girl squeaks in, she'll probably spend 2/3 of her time as an active worrying about every move she makes and whether she is "measuring up."

As a side note, the old movie "Inside Daisy Clover" was on last night. It's the story of a tomboy who gets discovered by a movie studio who proceeds to change everything about her. Of course, then she's miserable. That just seemed rather pertinent to this discussion.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Thank you. Yes. Exactly.

You can either get real, or you can stay in fantasy-land and lose out on being Greek at all. And as you said - even if the girl squeaks in, she'll probably spend 2/3 of her time as an active worrying about every move she makes and whether she is "measuring up."

As a side note, the old movie "Inside Daisy Clover" was on last night. It's the story of a tomboy who gets discovered by a movie studio who proceeds to change everything about her. Of course, then she's miserable. That just seemed rather pertinent to this discussion.

Right, and generally speaking, no girl can really keep this up.

They'll stay through the NM period and initiate even though they don't like playing "catch up" because they'll think "this is Top House and who in their right mind would depledge Top House?"

Anyone I have ever know in that sort of situation stuck it out maybe that first year, but terminated by next fall. Of course, by then it's too late to try again.

[AnchorAlumna]

Jenny and Suzie and Rachel all did have another chance. They (presumably) had recommendations from an alumna based on resumes and pictures they gave to the alum. That was the sororities' first look.

Presuming, of course, that they got their recs!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

Jenny and Suzie and Rachel all did have another chance. They (presumably) had recommendations from an alumna based on resumes and pictures they gave to the alum. That was the sororities' first look.

Presuming, of course, that they got their recs!

Heh, I refuse to add more hypotheticals to an already silly hypothetical.