Nebraskan city to hold immigration vote

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by super.fly

What is immigration reform going to accomplish?

Anybody else get a MMITY vibe?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by super.fly

What is immigration reform going to accomplish?

Reforming immigration. That was a silly question.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

It depends what immigration reform you want to see. It's such a vague term when you think about it. I think the reform she is talking about is an amnesty bill, which would accomplish a lot in the sense that we would no longer have anyone here illegally.

Oh geez, there you went taking it seriously. It does depend, and I'm not really sure what I want to see done but it's somewhere between "Annexing Mexico" and "Kick the brown people out." So you know, I've got a range.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Anybody else get a MMITY vibe?

My first thought. My second was why even bother participating in the discussion if that's all you bring.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by super.fly

It is a legit question. YOU said we NEED immigration reform. Explain why we need it.


If Obama grants the illegals amnesty what problems will that solve?

I didn't say I wanted amnesty.

We need immigration reform so people will stop whining about how illegal immigrants take all their jobs.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by super.fly

Are you really that naive?

If Obama grants the illegals amnesty, the new legals will continue to cause all the same problems. The new legals will continue to undercut wages and take the same exact jobs. At that point do you think out of work Americans will stop complaining?

If the illegals did not comply with the old laws, then what makes you think they will comply with new laws?


Are you an illegal?

Um the only reason they undercut wages IS because they are here illegally. If they were legal, then they would be able to claim the same labor laws as everybody else.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by super.fly

What a weak arguement. You are making a assumption that everyone will comply with the law. The reality is there are plenty of people that will break the law.

There are a hundred reasons to break the law. The main reason is MONEY!!! Employers will pay people under the table just to cut costs. Amnesty is not going to eliminate crooks. If anything it will open the doors to all the other crooks in the world.

Yes, but you are talking too separate issues. By your logic even if we didn't have illegals, we would still have the problem with people being payed illegally under the table. Though I don't think it would be as bad if we had a much lower amount of illegal immigrants. The only reason it is so common now is because they have so many people who quite frankly are open to victimization because of their status.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by super.fly

Are you really that naive?

If Obama grants the illegals amnesty, the new legals will continue to cause all the same problems. The new legals will continue to undercut wages and take the same exact jobs. At that point do you think out of work Americans will stop complaining?

If the illegals did not comply with the old laws, then what makes you think they will comply with new laws?


PS. When you said, "we NEED" amnesty, didn't you mean YOU, need amnesty?

When you learn how to read what I actually wrote instead of making it up in your head, I'll actually reply to you.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Yes, but you are talking too separate issues. By your logic even if we didn't have illegals, we would still have the problem with people being payed illegally under the table. Though I don't think it would be as bad if we had a much lower amount of illegal immigrants. The only reason it is so common now is because they have so many people who quite frankly are open to victimization because of their status.

Yeah the reason most people can't live off the grid and under the table is that they're trackable. The relatively few people who manage it are living under other identities (and thus still tracked, just not as themselves) or have removed themselves completely - paid in cash or in trade, either own their place outright or live with someone else, provide their own food or rely primarily on charity.

There's always the gray market but the "well employers will still cheat people even if they're legal" argument is a bad one.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by super.fly

There are a hundred reasons to break the law. The main reason is MONEY!!! Employers will pay people under the table just to cut costs. Amnesty is not going to eliminate crooks. If anything it will open the doors to all the other crooks in the world.

Yep, I hear ya.

But, amnesty will make it more difficult (not impossible, more difficult) for shady employers (shady capitalists) to violate labor laws and cut costs. When people are no longer here illegally and are no longer running from the law, they are more empowered to fight for their rights across the board.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yep, I hear ya.

But, amnesty will make it more difficult (not impossible, more difficult) for shady employers (shady capitalists) to violate labor laws and cut costs. When people are no longer here illegally and are no longer running from the law, they are more empowered to fight for their rights across the board.

Didn't we try the amnesty thing before?

Until we're actually ready to enforce the laws on the books and properly guard the border, we shouldn't do anything.

If we can do those things, I think some sort of quick path to citizenship, or at least a low cost work permit program would be a better option. Until then, we all subsidize illegal immigration anyway through their drawing on our social services, criminal and civil justice systems, driving on our roads, etc.

Priority one, however, must be building a system where never again will there be an entire class of people who has to live in the shadows.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Didn't we try the amnesty thing before?

I don't remember. Anything's possible.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Until we're actually ready to enforce the laws on the books and properly guard the border, we shouldn't do anything.

If we can do those things, I think some sort of quick path to citizenship, or at least a low cost work permit program would be a better option. Until then, we all subsidize illegal immigration anyway through their drawing on our social services, criminal and civil justice systems, driving on our roads, etc.

Priority one, however, must be building a system where never again will there be an entire class of people who has to live in the shadows.

I hear ya. As with all other social, political and economic topics, this is tough and there are no quick and fool proof solutions that will be fully supported and fully effective.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yep, I hear ya.

But, amnesty will make it more difficult (not impossible, more difficult) for shady employers (shady capitalists) to violate labor laws and cut costs. When people are no longer here illegally and are no longer running from the law, they are more empowered to fight for their rights across the board.

I don't like the term, " Doing jobs Americans won't do", because I don't feel like thts the case. I think they are getting paid wages that Americans can't survive on. I think if these so called unwanted jobs paid 11-13 dollars an hour you would see more US citizens applying for them. If we make everyone legal and give them the protection of labor laws and higher wages, who's to say the demand for migrant workers will be there anymore.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Didn't we try the amnesty thing before?

Until we're actually ready to enforce the laws on the books and properly guard the border, we shouldn't do anything.

If we can do those things, I think some sort of quick path to citizenship, or at least a low cost work permit program would be a better option. Until then, we all subsidize illegal immigration anyway through their drawing on our social services, criminal and civil justice systems, driving on our roads, etc.

Priority one, however, must be building a system where never again will there be an entire class of people who has to live in the shadows.

I rather agree, but it was the new guy who flipped out and really brought amnesty into this discussion in the first place.

I wonder though, with the number of illegal immigrants working under false SSNs and paying into the system with no way to withdraw from it - are we talking a net drain on resources or not? And how big is that actual drain? It's probably impossible to know, but it seems few people actually include what they put into the system as well as what they take out.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't like the term, " Doing jobs Americans won't do", because I don't feel like thts the case. I think they are getting paid wages that Americans can't survive on. I think if these so called unwanted jobs paid 11-13 dollars an hour you would see more US citizens applying for them. If we make everyone legal and give them the protection of labor laws and higher wages, who's to say the demand for migrant workers will be there anymore.

I agree that it's a lot about wages, however migrant workers are different from illegal immigrants. Unless I'm behind it's still possible to work here temporarily for the harvest season as a migrant worker and return home each year.

I do think that there's something also to be said about wanting cheap produce and products. If we're only willing to pay X for orange juice, they'll only pay Y. If they start paying Y+Z for workers, orange juice will cost more than X.

/solve for Y

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't like the term, " Doing jobs Americans won't do", because I don't feel like thts the case. I think they are getting paid wages that Americans can't survive on. I think if these so called unwanted jobs paid 11-13 dollars an hour you would see more US citizens applying for them. If we make everyone legal and give them the protection of labor laws and higher wages, who's to say the demand for migrant workers will be there anymore.

That's because so many Americans try to live beyond their means. And yes, there are a LOT of jobs that many refuse to take due to the wages...been to your local fast food joint lately? Seen any changes? Not just in racial make up but age range of those working the counter?? Not teens anymore.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't like the term, " Doing jobs Americans won't do", because I don't feel like thts the case.

To be clear, that phrase didn't come from my post.

It's funny because I was going to express my hatred for that phrase, which has been used against Blacks for decades, but I decided to spare GC of my soapbox.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think they are getting paid wages that Americans can't survive on. I think if these so called unwanted jobs paid 11-13 dollars an hour you would see more US citizens applying for them. If we make everyone legal and give them the protection of labor laws and higher wages, who's to say the demand for migrant workers will be there anymore.

Illegal immigrants (and many nonwhite legal immigrants from across the globe) are getting paid wages that feed capitalism. Minimum input and maximum output. Illegal immigrant populations are perfect targets for low wage and menial labor because their immigrant status shapes their rights and perceptions of their opportunities. I'll end my soapbox there.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by super.fly

Drolefiles "brilliant" reason for anmesty was so people would stop complaining.

Big word seem hard for you.

You. Are. A. Moron.

Apparently one who has the word amnesty flashing over his eyes so that he can't see anything else and it makes him go *whargarble*

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by super.fly

No. Once you open the flood gates you will increase the number of people competing for the same number of dollars. It will only make things worse. Once one shady company cuts corners then it forces the next one in line to do the same. Amnesty won't solve any problems.

Is amnesty going to create more jobs? Are the illegals who are now legal with 6th grade educations going to create jobs? Are they going to contribute enough to the system to cover their health care costs and the 12k per student for public school? If not then who do you think will pay those costs? Do you think people that have to cover those costs will not complain?

Amnesty is not intended to solve problems in and of itself. Problems are solved through a combination of efforts over long periods of time. People are looking for quick fixes that don't exist.

Don't fret, your proposed solutions also suck in and of themselves. It's a Sucky Solutions Party.