Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

RC, I haven't been to Boston, MA, but do you guys really have an illegal problem up there? This is an issue for which many of the negative aspects do not receive media coverage except through the unreliable right-wing fringe media. Here in Oklahoma, the problem isn't so bad. I deal with illegals, they're good folks, mostly pay payroll taxes under a fake SSN and above all and most importantly, they pay their attorney's fees.... every damn dime. Never had a bad experience. I understand that back home, attorneys can have them thrown in prison for failure to pay their fees, so that might be a cultural thing (wouldn't that be nice?).

At any rate, as you move South, the violence, drugs and kidnapping problems grow much, much worse. Maricopa County is pretty much an immigration war zone. Phoenix leads the world in the number of kidnappings per capita. The hospitals and social service programs are stretched thin, and no, I really doubt there are enough payroll taxes coming in from illegals to cover those expenses.

To reduce this issue to a racial/racist issue is maybe partially accurate, but it ain't the whole enchilada.

1 - I haven't lived in Boston in years, and my current home state's per capita undocumented population is pretty much on par with OK's, so we're on the same page there (for the record, MA has a higher illegal population than OK per capita - doesn't change anything, but an interesting example of confirmation biases ... I had no idea). Our experiences are pretty similar.

2 - When was the last time you were actually in Maricopa County? I wouldn't categorize it as a "war zone" from my experience (we have a main office in Phoenix), although there are significant drug trafficking and other crime issues (kidnappings are primarily between illegals or the result of drug deals, from my understanding). It's bad, but not exactly on the streets in the same way as in Juarez, for example (which is drug-related anyway).

Here's the problem though: this bill does absolutely nothing, at least on face, to address the crime problems associated with illegals. So illegals who are pulled over will be deported? Is this actually a substantive or functional change? Is it one "worth" the potential rights violations? I would say it's a resounding "no" - I just don't see it working in a way that functionally and significantly reduces crime.

So now, you're instituting an iffy law that will likely be expensive to enforce, yet does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of illegals. The only thing that will stem the tide is making it preferable to enter legally rather than illegally - this law is a major step in the wrong direction.

It really is a 2010 War on Drugs.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Here's the problem though: this bill does absolutely nothing, at least on face, to address the crime problems associated with illegals. So illegals who are pulled over will be deported? Is this actually a substantive or functional change? Is it one "worth" the potential rights violations? I would say it's a resounding "no" - I just don't see it working in a way that functionally and significantly reduces crime.

So now, you're instituting an iffy law that will likely be expensive to enforce, yet does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of illegals. The only thing that will stem the tide is making it preferable to enter legally rather than illegally - this law is a major step in the wrong direction.

It really is a 2010 War on Drugs.

100% agree.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

2 - When was the last time you were actually in Maricopa County? I wouldn't categorize it as a "war zone" from my experience (we have a main office in Phoenix), although there are significant drug trafficking and other crime issues (kidnappings are primarily between illegals or the result of drug deals, from my understanding). It's bad, but not exactly on the streets in the same way as in Juarez, for example (which is drug-related anyway).

All I know is what I read in the papers... or in this case, the ABA Journal... you know.. Sheriff Joe v. The World. The bottom line is that people are getting hurt, law enforcement is out of control and people's rights are being trampled prior to this law. I'm skeptical about laying that entirely at the feet of illegal immigration. I think that the reactionary nutters in power in those parts should bear some of the blame. Things are bad, no doubt.. and as far as Juarez, Baghdad probably compares favorably with Juarez.

Here's the problem though: this bill does absolutely nothing, at least on face, to address the crime problems associated with illegals. So illegals who are pulled over will be deported? Is this actually a substantive or functional change? Is it one "worth" the potential rights violations? I would say it's a resounding "no" - I just don't see it working in a way that functionally and significantly reduces crime.

That's a judgment call. The people of Arizona clearly think it's worth it. Whether the state can even do this is up in the air. I'll tell you one thing though -- if this bill gets upheld, a lot of young lawyers are going to be sitting for the Arizona Bar and opening up civil rights practices.

So now, you're instituting an iffy law that will likely be expensive to enforce, yet does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of illegals. The only thing that will stem the tide is making it preferable to enter legally rather than illegally - this law is a major step in the wrong direction.

It really is a 2010 War on Drugs.

The federal government is the only entity which can facilitate immigration. And they need to fix that.

Agreed... and for all practical purposes, the War on Drugs was lost a long time ago.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by Kevin

All I know is what I read in the papers... or in this case, the ABA Journal... you know.. Sheriff Joe v. The World. The bottom line is that people are getting hurt, law enforcement is out of control and people's rights are being trampled prior to this law. I'm skeptical about laying that entirely at the feet of illegal immigration. I think that the reactionary nutters in power in those parts should bear some of the blame. Things are bad, no doubt.. and as far as Juarez, Baghdad probably compares favorably with Juarez.



That's a judgment call. The people of Arizona clearly think it's worth it. Whether the state can even do this is up in the air. I'll tell you one thing though -- if this bill gets upheld, a lot of young lawyers are going to be sitting for the Arizona Bar and opening up civil rights practices.

To Kevin: I edited what I quoted, in the interest of space. First, agree with your statement about the "reactionary nutters." And if you want to know how "bad" it is in AZ, do a quick search on the drug wars in Nogales AZ. I used to visit there regularly and never gave a second thought to driving across the line, but no more. Not going to risk getting killed or caught in the cross fire.

Second, the people of Arizona do NOT think it's worth it. At least, not the people I know. It's the crazies in the legislature and the governor (who assumed office when the former governor took a position in the current Federal government) who came up with this measure. There is civil unrest building in AZ; the city governments of Flagstaff, Phoenix and Tucson are all weighing in with opposition to the measure. Yuma hasn't been heard from yet.

I keep telling you all, it just is Not Right. Plain and simple.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

That's a judgment call. The people of Arizona clearly think it's worth it. Whether the state can even do this is up in the air. I'll tell you one thing though -- if this bill gets upheld, a lot of young lawyers are going to be sitting for the Arizona Bar and opening up civil rights practices.

Yep - AZ is already a hotbed of first-of-its-kind Constitutional rights trials and awkward social suits . . . the Minutemen have had zero impact on immigration, but have made millions for people who facilitate the "pro bono" suits against them.

It's almost fitting that this law will wind up in front of the 9th Circuit.

The federal government is the only entity which can facilitate immigration. And they need to fix that.

And perhaps I'm not giving AZ enough credit - perhaps this will force the Federal government's hand and cause decisive action to fix a broken system (perhaps by instituting a new "classification" below naturalized, without voting rights etc but with ability to work etc.?).

That could certainly be - but it really just appears to be a bunch of retards like Max who think that a.) this bill will somehow kick millions out of the country and b.) those removed will somehow stay in their home nations. Right - let's add unicorns to the bill, too.

Agreed... and for all practical purposes, the War on Drugs was lost a long time ago.

Yep - and to me, this is identical: a "show of force" mentality for something that doesn't care at all about blunt force. This will require a sea change, and dipshit government officials seem wholly unprepared for it. The answers are actually pretty simple, but who has the balls to go to their constituents and explain "ok - solved the problem by making it easier to get into the country (and easier to send money back)."