Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

A lot of cities have identified themselves as "sanctuary" cities where police and non immigration related Gov agencies are prohibited from asking an individual any questions about citizenship or immigration status. With this law being passed it allows local police to run immigration checks on anyone who gives probable cause.

I know. I live in a sanctuary city.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Little tit for tat? The problem is, they specifically said that you don't have to be suspected of any crime to be checked.

This is exactly why I made my post about border patrol checkpoints. Everyone thinks that once you make it through the border crossing you're good to go but the federal government operates mobile border patrol checkpoints. I've been stopped and asked to identity my country of origin numerous times. After I provide ID I'm sent on my way. No crime was committed and I was not suspected of any crime other than illegal immigration. I don't see the difference between what the border patrol does and what the AZ police will now start doing.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Oh, being here illegally ISN'T a crime?

Touche'. Short, succinct and to the point. Score.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Touche'. Short, succinct and to the point. Score.

Not necessarily. The problem will come with stating articulable suspicion that the person being detained has committed a crime, if all the police can say is "well, he looked like he might be from Mexico."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I don't see the difference between what the border patrol does and what the AZ police will now start doing.

Where does border patrol operate? Do they patrol every street and do illegal immigrant check points throughout the state?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Oh, being here illegally ISN'T a crime?

And being hispanic isn't a crime. Being a hispanic doesn't make you automatically an illegal immigrant. How can you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal US citizen or a legal immigrant without profiling?

As for Kevlar...it is one thing to be checked near a border, it is completely another to be stopped walking down the street in towns far from a border.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Not necessarily. The problem will come with stating articulable suspicion that the person being detained has committed a crime, if all the police can say is "well, he looked like he might be from Mexico."

Yeah, I think the points about discrimination and racial/ethnic profiling went way over Ghostwriter's and PiKA2001's heads:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think we should sit back and see how this ends up being enforced. I don't believe that cops are going to start pulling over hispanics just to see if they are here illegally, I think they will do immigration checks in conjunction with criminal history checks when they already have a subject for DWI or assault or whatever infraction/misdemeanor.

We can't predict the future but we can look at what has happened more often than not when such laws and practices exist. If the law doesn't outline the do's and don'ts of it while acknowledging how it can be mishandled (I'm not saying laws necessarily do this), that gives the power and discretion to law enforcement--sounds familiar.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by epchick

IDK about the "kick ass" part, but I was told this when I complained about the bill. "What are you complaining about, it's not like they are gonna stop you!"

I understand what the governor was trying to accomplish with this bill, but the outcome (like DrPhil said) will just be wrong.

I like how people are saying this WON'T turn into racial profiling because illegal Hispanics aren't the only "illegals"--you got people from the Asian countries, as well as European ones. Yeah, like the cops will really stop a white man and say "let me see your papers, I think you might be here illegally."

the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens are of hispanic descent. 10 million of the 12 million illegals are hispanic. are the hispanic cops going to be practicing racial profiling?

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you've been following the antics of a certain Harvard grad District Attorney in Maricopa County, you'd believe as I do, that though they have heard about things like the Supremacy Clause, they don't think those things apply to them.

We had a similar law in Oklahoma, although admittedly weaker than Arizona's law. It was struck down by the 10th Circuit on preemption grounds holding that federal law both expressly and impliedly preempted the Oklahoma laws.

State laws are expressly preempted by federal law when either Congress has already enacted a statutory scheme intended to occupy the field or when it becomes a physical impossibility to comply with both the federal and state laws. When it comes to immigration, there is a statutory scheme on the books and at least one federal agency whose sole purpose is to fight illegal immigration. If there's no argument for an intent to occupy the field here, I don't think there's one anywhere.

Further, a law can be impliedly preempted. One way for that to happen is if the new law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full objectives of Congress.

Congress has chosen, through inaction mostly, to have a semi-porous border with our Southern neighbor. It is federal policy to encourage immigration. The Arizona law would seem to interfere with the objectives of Congress, giving state officials unfettered power to over-enforce Congress' statutory scheme, bringing about an end result which few would claim was what Congress had in mind when enacting the current statutory scheme.

For the above reasons, just about all of Oklahoma's laws, which at the time (Google Oklahoma and HB1804 from 2007) were the strongest in the country were held unconstitutional on preemption grounds. The only part which was allowed to stand was a voluntary ID-check thingamajig for employers where employers were given some sort of incentive to check the immigration status of new employees through a federal database called EVerify.

I don't actually know anyone who uses that system though.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

i couldn't figure out explicitly how this law is going to implemented. but i figure that something to the affect that the everify thing that you mentioned would be a good idea.

and from what i'm gathering from your post, the state has no right to fight illegal immigration because there's a federal agency already existing to do so?

so you're saying that it's congress's explicit policy to encourage immigration or it's interpreted policy through inaction?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by starang21

are the hispanic cops going to be practicing racial profiling?

Yes.

Just like Black police officers engaged in racial profiling and DWB, even if they engaged in it reluctantly. It was partly a means of earning their stripes and, for some, it was a means of distinguishing themselves as different than "dem n------s."

Racial profiling is a practice like institutional discrimination. You don't have to be white (or not a member the targeted group) to engage in such discriminatory practices.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by starang21

the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens are of hispanic descent. 10 million of the 12 million illegals are hispanic.

Oh yeah and this was used as a justification for racial profiling targeting Blacks.

Although whites commit most of the crimes in America, Blacks are disproportionately represented in crime. Therefore, law enforcement and many citizens felt that reducing crime (particularly the "street crimes" that people feared the most) could be accomplished if they targeted certain areas of the city and certain groups of people. Many people felt that high crime rates committed by such an underrepresented group was indicative of criminal predisposition and therefore warranted such tactics. It's also easier to target a minority group than target a majority group. Woohoo!!!!

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Where does border patrol operate?

Typically within a 100 miles of the border.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Do they patrol every street

They don't but nothing that I know of besides policy prevents them from doing so if they chose to.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Do they...do illegal immigrant check points throughout the state?

Yes

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As for Kevlar...it is one thing to be checked near a border, it is completely another to be stopped walking down the street in towns far from a border.

I don't see how proximity to the border makes one acceptable and the other not.

/edit: to prevent double posting.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

They don't but nothing that I know of besides policy prevents them from doing so if they chose to.

Then that's one of the differences between the border patrol and regular police patrol.

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

Typically within a 100 miles of the border.
Yes

Then I believe the answer is "no, they don't patrol and have check points throughout the state."

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I don't see how proximity to the border makes one acceptable and the other not.

Let's think critically about this:
Border patrol. Proximity to the border. Specific purpose.

Every city and state has different roles and jurisdictions for policing agencies for a reason.

[Low C Sharp]

I'm not sure where everyone in this thread is from but there are already parts of the country that do random stops.

Exactly -- they are random, which is fine. What isn't fine is stopping people on the non-random suspicion that they are here illegally, when they haven't shown signs of committing any other crime. It's hard to imagine any enforcement system where this law would impose equal burdens on white and Hispanic citizens of Arizona. If enforced as written, it's going to lead to lots of interrogation of Hispanic-looking people in large part because they appear Hispanic.
________
Headshops

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then that's one of the differences between the border patrol and regular police patrol.

I'm not arguing that there is no difference between the border patrol and the AZ police. I'm arguing that one government entity is already doing what another law enforcement agency will soon be doing.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then I believe the answer is "no, they don't patrol and have check points throughout the state."

I'll say it one more time. Yes they do.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Let's think critically about this:
Border patrol. Proximity to the border. Specific purpose.

Every city and state has different roles and jurisdictions for policing agencies for a reason.

So that makes it ok? Wow.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I'm arguing that one government entity is already doing what another law enforcement agency will soon be doing.

No.

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I'll say it one more time. Yes they do.

75-100 miles from the border is "throughout the state?" Explain that to me. Aren't there more miles in the state than that?

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

So that makes it ok? Wow.

Ummm...what are you talking about?