kappa sigma at fgcu?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane- I did post the facts earlier on, no worries. And while it is important to "begin with the facts," I didn't start this thread. Someone else started it, I got wind and hopped on. So, I'm wondering why all of you were blogging w/o knowing the facts first?

Anyhow, there is nothing inconsistent with my stories. Please don't insinuate to others that I am misleading anyone. They said "No, not now, we only invite fraternities on campus." (No and not now are one in the same because there are no guarantees any group will ever be let on, as I explain further below). The expansion process was explained, and when I looked online myself, I also found it in a short amount of time.

The (unconstitutional) "systematic" expansion process at FGCU is as such- the IFC, whenever it feels it is ready, forms a Greek Life Expansion Committee (GLIC). The GLIC invites certain fraternities to come onto campus and give a presentation, then votes on which fraternity it would like to "allow" onto campus.

Just to be clear, this part of the process was always clear and explained to us. They said "we are not ready for expansion, so go home, you can't come here." Aka, they said "no" you can't expand. Were we to wait for an unspecified period of time (which again is arbitrary at whenever IFC feels like forming GLIC), we would have only been invited, maybe, to FGCU to "give a presentation." If we weren't selected, which with 4 or 5 other fraternities vetting for the same right was nothing short of a long shot for all involved, then we would have been told, again, "no, you can't come here, not this time, we might invite you back again to try."

So, this is why we have a problem with the process. All of the fraternities that are told "no" are being shot down by the IFC, which doesn't have any legal right to grant or deny anyone their rights. Our rights to operate on public universities don't rest in the hands of the students (IFC). Each and every student has a right to create his or her own lawful student organization and be a Registered Student Organization at FGCU, that is the law (equal protection). If you disagree, go look it up, I posted it yesterday. So, we decided to support the young men who wanted to be a part of Kappa Sigma and help them form a Colony anyway.


However, when we came anyway, some in the Office of Student Life (obviously) weren't pleased. They decided they wouldn't even recognize us as a student group, claiming that because we are a single-gender organization, we can't be recognized. Our response, logically, was that FGCU allows the other fraternities on campus to operate, why would they deny us those same rights? And hence the equal protection of the laws arguments. FGCU can't deny us the right to be a student organization simply because IFC doesn't want us around. That would be like FGCU telling the Baptist Student Association that it couldn't be a Registered Student Organization because the Methodist Student Association and the Presbyterian Student Association didn't want them around. Doesn't make sense, right? That has been illegal since Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.


Now, this is where what we are doing is important. When governmental officials get wild ideas like deciding they can adopt unconstitutional laws and therefore discriminate against Kappa Sigma and every other fraternity who has been told they couldn't colonize, it is vital to the health of democracy that we stand up for our rights. FGCU is infringing upon our rights, and we have chosen to stand up for ourselves. It isn't poor planning on our part, but challenging the system is a slow process until we finally make enough noise to effectuate change.

I honestly don't think FGCU administrators had any ill will when they adopted the private school policies, I just think they were misinformed and didn't realize telling other fraternities they couldn't colonize was unconstitutional at public (aka government and taxpayer supported) universities. And now that they helped implement those policies, the administrators feel partial and are fighting really hard to beat us down, even though those policies are clearly unconstitutional, as we have pointed out. One read through of Title 9 clearly defeats their position.

So, Lane, the argument is multifaceted and can get convoluted, and typing it out each time someone jumps in is pretty inefficient. The school withheld certain information from us after the initial meeting, but we understood their Greek "systematic expansion" policy from the beginning. It wasn't a matter of not knowing the policies, it is the fact that the school says "thanks but no thanks you can't colonize." We are fighting that policy, and despite the road being long and hard, we are close to gaining our rightful recognition from FGCU, I hope. Our young men on campus have been through a lot, and it takes great courage to forge on in the face of all the attacks to which they have been subjected. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and it is impossible to manage everything the undergraduates (and alumni) say to each other, especially when other fraternity members maliciously spread false rumors.

If you are still reading Lane, thank you. I am forced to be long winded to respond to all the attacks and to also tell the story from way back in November of 2008. Hopefully all of the personal shots at me stop, and if anyone has any relevant, insightful or otherwise helpful questions or comments, please post.

Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

[ThetaPrincess24]

I heart you LaneSig! You would make my Sigma Chi father proud

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane, I have said multiple times- we chose our own actions. We knew challenging university policies would be a tough and long road. Those are our decisions and we stand behind them. This is another acknowledgment that we are here because we choose to be.

Now, where we disagree is the effect of challenging those "policies" and that's what I am trying to convey. FGCU shouldn't be worried about us following any legal and fair "rules." Like I've said before, we will follow rules that every other organization has to follow, such as turning in rosters, attending seminars, keeping officer information up to date, etc. Those are "rules" to follow. But telling us we're not welcome on campus is not a rule to follow, it's a denial of rights. We are standing up for our rights. I'm trying to convey to you the difference between the government requiring you to register to vote (a rule) and denying you the right to vote. Refusing to register to vote is bucking a rule, but we weren't even given the option, we were told you can't vote. See the difference there? We can't "follow wishes or policies" of FGCU that amount to being denied our right to exist, that is not being given a rule to follow.

"Blameless" isn't the issue, we are standing up for our rights, and want to address the legality of FGCU denying the undergraduates students in kappa Sigma official recognition. We have the right to do so, I hope you agree.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

LaneSig,

Choice #2 isn't "Eff you!" on our part. Do you label everyone protecting their 1st Amendment Rights this way? We were told "Eff you!" by the school. It's hard trading points with you because of your lack of understanding for what is going on here. If a group is protesting on a public sidewalk, and the police tell them "No" or "Eff you get out of here," and the group persists, then who is right? You may not like what we have to say, but you have to accept the fact that we have the right to say it. See the difference there? We never said "Eff you" we respectfully said this is the United States of America and under the laws of this country, you can't deny us the right to freely associate, and thus we support the young men on campus who want to be a part of our organization. We are sticking up for our rights, what do you not see about this? If your local city government put a gag order on your First Amendment rights, what would you say? Why on earth would you stick up for the government violating the rights that for centuries we have fought so hard to protect. Contrary to Princess' statements, you wouldn't make anyone I know proud. All you are doing is condemning these kids for standing up for themselves. Challenging the system is difficult, and there are many naysayers along the way. We did choose our own path, but like I said before, we aren't afraid of the struggle. You should be ashamed of yourself as a United States American.

MysticCat, since you are legally educated, can you please drop the bias for one second and help progress this discussion along? Yes, I'm asking for a neutral statement from you since all of you who have been on this Greek Chat thing for years seem to stick together. Please describe the difference to your cronies between disagreeing with a message and disagreeing with the right to present the message.

Rambler, it's nearly impossible to conduct intelligent and constructive discourse on this thing. All anyone wants to focus on is the negative. Not one person will stand up and say "Although I disagree with your stance, I acknowledge you have the right to say it." LaneSig's example #2 from above is the perfect example. He describes our actions in defending our right to equal protection as saying "Eff You." You can't get anywhere in a conversation when these people fail to understand the basics of our Bill of Rights.

Okay, so since I don't agree with your position, that makes me a person who no one you know would be proud of and un-American? I thought one of your points about Kappa Sigma was that it was okay to disagree and not want to go with the flow. That's part of your argument about Kappa Sigma's stance with FGCU. But, apparently it only applies to Kappa Sigma and not people who disagree with you.

I never said that the stance of equal protection is "F--- you". I said that when they asked you to wait - whether they gave you a time frame or not- your actions of going ahead and colonizing was a (metaphorical) "F--- you." Not the latter actions, but the initial action.

So, I'm actually going to far as to quote myself. I gave clear thought in showing what the initial actions were that led up to the point. However, you chose to focus on Choice #2 and ignore what might have possibly happened with Choice #1. You also chose to ignore the comments about your 2nd post where you questioned our fraternity/sorority memberships and did not realize that you are logging with a great many alumns.

I said it before, let me repeat: Until ryquis came misreading what I wrote (go back and look), this was a genial discussion and no one had said anything negative about Kappa Sigma, the colony, or FGCU. No one had called names. It was a factual discussion until that point.

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

Add to that:

1) Are you an undergraduate, and if so, how are you advising the chapter?

2) What kind of legal background do you have?

[KSigAdvisor]

Originally Posted by 33girl

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

QFP. Idiot, times two.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

I must say that I am glad you are having a slow day. This thread has been fun to lurk in- although I'll take the "you're just young" part as a complement.