kappa sigma at fgcu?

[MysticCat]

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

MysticCat: Not sure what you've been doing for the last 20 years, but you are confusing your constitutional law. First Amendment rights include the right to freely associate. Equal protection, on the other hand, is a Fourteenth Amendment matter. Toe separate issues, both being violated by the same act.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

First Amendment Issue: As of right now, FGCU makes the argument that they aren't infringing upon our right to freely associate because they are "allowing" us to "be" on campus. In other words, they make the argument that they aren't infringing upon our rights by denying us meeting space on campus because we can technically "associate" with whomever we feel when we're out and about on school grounds, i.e., outside. This argument has been made before, and has failed. And you are right, Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169, 183 (1972), holding that "there can be no doubt that denial of official recognition, without justification, to college organizations burdens of abridges that associational right. The primary impediment to free association flowing from nonrecognition is the denial of use of campus facilities for meetings and other appropriate purposes."

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

Here at FGCU, and this is where the 14th Amendment equal protection analysis comes into play, FGCU provides certain fraternities with campus facilities for meetings on campus, but is denying us that right. Thus, in one fell swoop they are infringing upon our 1st Amendment rights, and at the same time, by providing other fraternities with those rights, discriminating against us in violation of equal protection laws.

So far, FGCU has failed to articulate any legal justification for excluding us from usage of campus facilities.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

Thus, MysticCat, as you can see (and this is not a shot at you) I am not grossly overstating the rights of expressive organizations. Were FGCU to ban all Greek life, they'd actually have a stronger legal argument than they do now. However, by recognizing certain groups, FGCU is legally bound to afford all student groups with the same opportunities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.

[33girl]

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by 33girl

you are a fucking idiot.



May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot.

Because it just had to be said again.

[FSUZeta]

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point.


Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus? I've never heard of anything dumber in my entire life.

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

FTW

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

but stupid people anger me.

So you must be really pissed at yourself

Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students.

You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

MysticCat, it sounds like maybe slow days are normal for you, cognitively speaking. We don't need recognition from the other fraternities to operate on campus. "Recognition" is the name for the rights that come therewith, i.e., use of campus facilities. We seek "recognition" from FGCU, because they are a state actor and must provide student organizations with certain rights such as use of university facilities. We don't seek anything from IFC anymore.

Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

"Recognition" by the IFC has zero effect on whether FGCU "recognizes" us as a student organization just like it does every other student organization.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

If 10 other student groups decided to form a group of representatives and that group "voted" your group off campus, what would you say?

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.

I think there is more to your mention of the Hitler Corps than I originally thought 33Girl, because you support blatantly communist principles.

You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

If you can get over my insults, MysticCat, the ones that I'm entitled to because your groups voted to keep us out of IFC, then please expand upon your following comment:

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

Why are we not similarly situated? Because FGCU invented an unconstitutional and discriminatory rule that we chose to fight? I wuold like to see you articulate a defense to that catch 22. "You can't come on campus, and if you choose to anyway, then we can discriminate against you, because we told you not to in the first place." That's not a rule, that's discrimination.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by the student government before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

This is wicked true about the limited resources. However, SG doens't recognize the groups at FGCU, OSI does. Just an FYI

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by jennyj87

This is wicked true about the limited resources. However, SG doens't recognize the groups at FGCU, OSI does. Just an FYI

Thank you and corrected. The way my school did it, so I ASSumed.

[CougarGrad]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus?

I'm confused. If you're an advisor- which I'm not doubting that you are- how can you not know how the Greek expansion process works?

I can show up at TCU and recruit all kinds of young ladies to join the new "chapter" of Alpha Phi. We can have "recruitment," and events, and mixers, and initiations, and everything.

...and if we're not recognized as a chapter by the Panhellenic council, OR the university, we won't be recognized by our Executive Office, either.

If this chapter of Kappa Sigma isn't officially recognized at FGCU, can it be officially recognized by your HQ?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

The point here is that we should all be on the same team, fraternities and sororities alike, in our fight for open expansion. Supporting FGCU's attempts to keep us off campus is supporting another university's attempts to keep your groups off campus elsewhere. And here is my guarantee, if a public university is ever trying to keep your group off campus (for non-disciplinary reasons, of course) if you call up Kappa Sigma (the #1 fraternity in amount of pledges nationally five years running) we will be the first ones to support you. And I promise, regardless of the ad hominem attacks by 33Girl and by myself and others, you will be treated with complete respect.

A lot of us do support open expansion. We're called the member fraternities of NIC.

And also -- why the hell would my organization (or any other GLO) need Kappa Sigma's blessing in order to expand? Really? What could KS do?

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

my unprofessional name calling and shot taking isn't helping much either. True - so why do you keep doing it?

The point here is that we should all be on the same team, fraternities and sororities alike, in our fight for open expansion. Really? Do you think with comments like this:
Lastly, before I forget, I don't expect any of the sorority members on here to really understand this argument. Your views are skewed by the fact that you have voluntarily created an unnecessary organization that you named Panhellenic, which you give the authority to provide strict oversight of your groups. Believe it or not, you could actually operate without it.

any sorority member is going to be impressed by you? Why can't we understand your argument? Are our little feminine brains too small to handle logic and legalese? Really? Here's an eye-opener for you - we can understand a valid argument! Some of us actually get college educations, and work in academic and professional fields! I teach logic to college students, and we discuss all sorts of things which are outside my/our personal experience.
NPC does an admirable job of handling expansion - it works for us. We like the system - it's not a case of whether or not we could operate without it - it's a case of not feeling the need to fix what isn't broken. Fraternities have a much higher rate of chapters closing and/or not even making it past the colony stage than sororities as a result of their more open-expansion policies.It's a price fraternities seem willing to pay - but that doesn't mean our system is "unnecessary".

Honest to goodness, for the sake of the undoubtedly good guys who are in the colony, please stop being argumentative and combative - you are not helping the cause. If you can't present your argument without being insulting maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

eta - IBTL

[33girl]

Dude, just call up Julian Bond, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and they will be so on the side of their poor oppressed brothers. (Everyone stop a minute and think about normally cool and composed JB saying "WHAT is this honky talking about??")

[UofM-TKE]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

eta - IBTL

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point. Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. Don't minimize the importance of our plight. First amendment freedoms are as equally important to fraternities as applied to any other group. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students. Universities can't simply exclude groups from campus while recognizing other groups, and we will prevail on this point, I promise you.

KSig Advisor -

My apologies, you did post this earlier and I even quoted it in an earlier post. But, now it kind of looks like you are changing your story. In my above quote you are saying that the Administration just said "No" and didn't give you any information. But, in this earlier post you are admitting that the Administration basically said, "Not now. We are inviting groups." Probably asking groups to present and the best fit would be allowed.

So which is it? The Administration said "Not now" and you all said we're going to do it anyway? Which is what you said earlier.

Or, your new story? The Administration said "No" and nothing else. So you went ahead thinking that it would be acceptable?