Prodigy, product of propaganda, or....? 10 yr old refuses to say Pledge of Allegiance

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by thetygerlily

Agreed. I've never been a fan of the "under god" part, but I always stood out of respect for the pledge and the others in the room.

Originally Posted by epchick

I'm a sub, and I don't mind if the kids don't say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. But they will stand, and they will NOT be disruptive to the students, because that is just a lack of respect.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I taught in a public school, all students stood as a matter of respect, but no one HAD to say the pledge.

I participate in the pledge, and unless the national anthem is being performed in a way that discourages others from singing, I sing along. It's important to me, so I do it.

Having said that, I don't agree with making students stand for the pledge. While some people view standing as a sign of respect, others see it as something more. Plus, I figure requiring people to stand and/or pledge is completely contrary to the sentiment. Kinda like having to tell someone you want them to hug you.

If you want to stand and pledge, fine. If you want to stand only, fine. If you don't want to stand or pledge, fine.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I participate in the pledge, and unless the national anthem is being performed in a way that discourages others from singing, I sing along. It's important to me, so I do it.

Having said that, I don't agree with making students stand for the pledge. While some people view standing as a sign of respect, others see it as something more. Plus, I figure requiring people to stand and/or pledge is completely contrary to the sentiment. Kinda like having to tell someone you want them to hug you.

If you want to stand and pledge, fine. If you want to stand only, fine. If you don't want to stand or pledge, fine.

What "something more"? There's a big difference between requiring someone to say words they don't believe, and asking them to show respect to those who do wish to pledge. Standing doesn't say anything other than you are acknowledging the importance of the pledge to others - to sit is an act of disrespect.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

What "something more"? There's a big difference between requiring someone to say words they don't believe, and asking them to show respect to those who do wish to pledge. Standing doesn't say anything other than you are acknowledging the importance of the pledge to others - to sit is an act of disrespect.

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag. And to require someone to stand who isn't required to pledge is inconsistent.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag.

Not necessarily. This is perhaps not the most common example, but when my son was in Cub Scouts, meetings always began with the Pledge. Son's den leader (except for the few years I was den leader) was English. At the beginning of the the first meeting, he explained that he is still a British subject. So, he told them, he doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance and would always be asking one of them to lead it. But, he added, he would always stand at attention (without a Scout salute or putting his hand over his heart, which would have been a gesture specifically honoring the flag itself) when the Pledge was being said to show respect for them and for what the pledge means to others. The Canadian mom of one of the Scouts would do the same.

I'm with SWTXBelle -- simply standing, without hand over heart, doesn't seem any different to me than standing respectfully when the national anthem of another country is played (like "O Canada" at hockey games) or when the congregation stands in a religious service of a faith not my own. It's just seems like good manners.

Oh, and Dr. Phil . . .

[epchick]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag.

This is the way that I've told the students...there are people fighting on the other side of the world for our country, for our freedom. You don't have to agree with everything our government does, but out of respect for our soldiers fighting for us, you will stand.

When I stood up to say the pledge and the national anthem, it was NEVER out of respect for the flag. It was always because the men/women fought for all the rights and freedoms we have. Maybe its because I grew up in a military family and that is why I think that way, but I've heard many teachers tell their students that as well.


In contrast, we have a lot of kids from Mexico. Over there they have NO options, they must say sing their anthem, have their hands over their heart (they don't do it like we do, they do the hand salute, but have it over where their heart is), and say whatever pledge or whatever they have. But once they get over here, they decide they wanna goof off.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by epchick

When I stood up to say the pledge and the national anthem, it was NEVER out of respect for the flag. It was always because the men/women fought for all the rights and freedoms we have.

And this would be one of those "something more" kind of instances. To me, this doesn't sound like you think people should stand out of respect to the others around them who are standing, it sounds like people should stand out of respect for soldiers.

I also agree with MysticCat (and, from what's implied, SWTXBelle) that standing is good manners. I think that's absolutely correct. And that's another reason why I think making people stand is contrary to the intent. If they had good manners and chose not to stand, perhaps simply standing, to them, is more than respect to others - perhaps it equals honoring the flag. And from a Jehova's Witness POV, that's a no-no. I can't imagine a JW would put manners ahead of religious conviction. I just don't think it's appropriate to expect everyone to stand without knowing the reasons why they might choose not to.

[MysticCat]

^^^ I see the distinction you're making, and I think it's a point well-taken. Perhaps a teacher, instead of simply telling those who chose not to recite the pledge that they still must stand, can find in it an opportunity to teach everyone -- those who don't recite can be encouraged to consider where they might find the line between good manners and violating their own consciouses, and those who do recite can be encouraged to respect the decisions of others.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

And this would be one of those "something more" kind of instances. To me, this doesn't sound like you think people should stand out of respect to the others around them who are standing, it sounds like people should stand out of respect for soldiers.

You are correct, I don't think that students need to stand up out of respect for their fellow students. I wouldn't do it for that reason, so why should I expect my students to do it? It is out of respect for the soldiers, past and present.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by epchick

You are correct, I don't think that students need to stand up out of respect for their fellow students. I wouldn't do it for that reason, so why should I expect my students to do it? It is out of respect for the soldiers, past and present.

I have to say, though, that until your posts on the subject, I've never heard anyone draw a connection between the Pledge and showing respect for soldiers/veterans. I'm not saying it's an improper connection to draw, necessarily, but I've never heard it before.