Who benefited from the No Child Left Behind?

[Psi U MC Vito]

I'm waiting for him to insult somebody and it turns out that they are white, upper class and a doctorate. I think that would be entertaining to watch.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I'm waiting for him to insult somebody and it turns out that they are white, upper class and a doctorate. I think that would be entertaining to watch.

He already hit 2/3.

[ASUADPi]

NCLB, AYP and AZ Learns are the reason I'm getting out of education. NCLB is a crock of "bleep". It is an unfunded and retarded mandate. I'm sorry, even if the stupid thing was funded, it would still be a crock. There are some amazing teachers out there (and there are some who just need to get out of the profession all together), but it doesn't matter how great the teacher is, some kids WILL NEVER be at grade level!!! To expect a special needs child with an IQ of 75 to take and PASS a test at GRADE LEVEL is asinine. Right now the kids aren't 'required" to pass but to take and have a score, but that will eventually go the way of the dinosaur as the whole point of NCLB is to have "all kids to grade level by 2013, which is a another crock of crap in itself).

There are lawsuits going on in AZ right now because our stupid superintendent of public instruction (who has never set foot in a classroom in his life!) is wanting to change the "law" so that those kids who do have an IEP and don't "pass" AIMS (our state high stakes testing needed for graduation), it will "say so" on their frickin diploma!! Talk about truly labeling a child!

I got so tired of the crap associated with everything. I spent more time "teaching" for some stupid district assessment or state assessment that I rarely did anything interesting or even remotely fun with my students. No wonder kids hate school now! Plus, how does it really show how "smart" my kids are in the first place? Prior to my kids taking the 3rd grade AIMS (in 2008), I spent like a month doing practice AIMS (which had the same standards and essentially very similiar questions).

I "taught" them how to "take" the stupid test. You know why I did this? Because whether I'm considered a "good" teacher or "not" is based on those stupid scores! They don't care about their work in class, their grades in class, their progress monitoring or DIBELS scores, all they (the district, state, government) care about is AIMS (or any other high stakes test). Yes, most "good" teachers actually have their students do well, but I worked in a low income district, where I would say 80% of the students were hispanic and of that 80%, 60% were monolingual English and of that 60% I would say 40-50% were illegal. You do the math on how well most of the kids in this district do on state high stakes tests!

Education has become more and more political due to NCLB and quite honestly it has taken the fun out of teaching and I think out of learning. Yes, there were problems in education when I was a kid, but I graduated from high school, went to college, got a Bachelors and even a masters degree. I have owned two homes, own my car, I'm pretty sure I turned out okay based on the education I got as a child. My parents are highly educated (mom has two masters, going for her 3rd, dad is working on his masters), I'm sure they turned out okay and education was so much more different when they were kids.

Okay, I'm totally rambling now and I'm not sure I'm making any sense so I'm going to "shut up". LOL.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by gamma

Good parenting works for most. Instead of making excuses you should try it.

By your logic, I guess your parents failed then, huh?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Jackass.

Who is "you"?

You're addressing someone with a doctorate, idiot.

That's the least of asshat's worries. S/he/it is incapable of answering simple questions.

Anyhow, wassup with OU this year? And don't say the little QB hurting himself, cuz Game Day Football and Sports Nation follow me on Twitter. So, wassup?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Yes, most "good" teachers actually have their students do well, but I worked in a low income district, where I would say 80% of the students were hispanic and of that 80%, 60% were monolingual English and of that 60% I would say 40-50% were illegal. You do the math on how well most of the kids in this district do on state high stakes tests!

Welcome to my whole city And they wonder why El Paso doesn't perform as well as other cities in Texas. Well shiiit, if my HS didn't have enough money to buy protractors for every student in every geometry class (my school only had 1000 kids in it anyways) BEFORE NCLB, why would they have enough money after NCLB? Especially when making AYP determines whether you get federal funding or not.



Something to consider....abiding by NCLB and all that comes with it is NOT mandatory. You don't have to follow what the federal government (or even the state government) says, but if you schools/school districts choose not to follow them, then they get NO funding whatsoever. If every school district in the nation decided to stop following NCLB, and teach the way teachers are suppose to think, (so essentially it's a boycott) do you think that would be enough of a clue for our administration to reconsider NCLB?


ETA: Why are you all still engaging gamma/MM? Just ignore him, and let him rot.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Okay, I'm totally rambling now and I'm not sure I'm making any sense so I'm going to "shut up". LOL.

Maybe if you'd spent all summer on a lesson plan . . . oh, the lament.

I get where you're saying, but the kids we're using as the "problem" are a niche. Maybe there are quite a few in your school (or El Paso), but that's not a massive, overwhelming issue - so why do teachers, on a massive, overwhelming level, hate the program? There's a disconnect between the anger and the rationale, and I find it very interesting.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Maybe if you'd spent all summer on a lesson plan . . . oh, the lament.

I get where you're saying, but the kids we're using as the "problem" are a niche. Maybe there are quite a few in your school (or El Paso), but that's not a massive, overwhelming issue - so why do teachers, on a massive, overwhelming level, hate the program? There's a disconnect between the anger and the rationale, and I find it very interesting.

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

But it's typically not one kid; it's all your kids. And most evaluators are very aware of what particular teachers do and who they teach. Sure, you may superficially look bad to have all the failures, but if you teach all the learning disabled kids, anyone with any sense knows that your kids aren't like the other kids by definition.

And, unless I've missed something major, NCLB doesn't really require that anyone do anything to teachers based on the results of the test. If that's going on, it's an example of a local or state policy that the district is blaming on NCLB.

NCLB is basically being scapegoated for everything going on educationally that people don't like. Not all of it, and I'd even say a majority of what we hear about, isn't in NCLB itself and may only be loosely connected to it.

[AGDee]

Well, if one kid in your class had a really bad first grade teacher, wouldn't it follow that about 1/6th of your kids had the same teacher? If your district isn't blaming the individual teachers, I think you're lucky. The teachers I know, up here, are very much judged based on how their kids do on those tests even though the test is administered in October, when the teachers have only been teaching those particular kids for 5-6 weeks. It was really crazy in the elementary school, when teachers would approach you and ask you to request them for your child for the next grade because they knew your kid was a good student and, therefore, would make them look good. There were 3 teachers at our elementary who did that. I deliberately requested different teachers because of it. And no, NCLB doesn't say to punish the teachers whose kids don't do well, but sh*t always rolls downhill, as the saying goes. The blame all goes to the teachers when the district is in danger of losing its funding.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Well, if one kid in your class had a really bad first grade teacher, wouldn't it follow that about 1/6th of your kids had the same teacher? If your district isn't blaming the individual teachers, I think you're lucky. The teachers I know, up here, are very much judged based on how their kids do on those tests even though the test is administered in October, when the teachers have only been teaching those particular kids for 5-6 weeks. It was really crazy in the elementary school, when teachers would approach you and ask you to request them for your child for the next grade because they knew your kid was a good student and, therefore, would make them look good. There were 3 teachers at our elementary who did that. I deliberately requested different teachers because of it. And no, NCLB doesn't say to punish the teachers whose kids don't do well, but sh*t always rolls downhill, as the saying goes. The blame all goes to the teachers when the district is in danger of losing its funding.

But aren't the scores judged based on improvement from last year, and not so much whether or not they're actually at grade level? I mean, grade level is the goal, but I was under the impression that improvement and retention of improvement from year to year was what was actually being measured.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by agzg

But aren't the scores judged based on improvement from last year, and not so much whether or not they're actually at grade level? I mean, grade level is the goal, but I was under the impression that improvement and retention of improvement from year to year was what was actually being measured.

I only know how they are measuring it on the tests here. The MEAP gives a score of 1-4. 1 is performing above grade level, 2 is at grade level. A 1 or a 2 is considered "passing". They look at the percentage of kids who meet that minimum vs those who don't. Their raw scores work like this: A 420 means they are working at a 4th grade, 2nd month level. 490 is 4th grade, 9th month level. If, in second grade, a child earns a score of 140, they are not "passing". If, when they take it in third grade, they score a 280, they are still not "passing", even though they've advanced a year and 4 months in one year. They are improving, they are catching up, but the way it's measured doesn't reflect that. Either way, they failed to meet the minimum required. That may be a problem with the tool being used here? Also, they used to test in May, so they were testing the learning from that school year. They changed it to October though, a couple years ago. I'm not sure why. It seems to make more sense to me to test at the end of the year if you're going to judge teachers on how their kids perform.

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by agzg

But aren't the scores judged based on improvement from last year, and not so much whether or not they're actually at grade level? I mean, grade level is the goal, but I was under the impression that improvement and retention of improvement from year to year was what was actually being measured.

One problem with the tests, is they don't always test on the standards.

For example, AIMS 3-8th grade is a combination norm-referenced test and criterion-referenced tests. The ADE literally states that the test includes questions from the SAT-10, which is a norm-referenced test. The SAT-10 doesn't align with AZ standards, so therefore the kids are being tested on items that they might not have learned as they aren't a standard for that particular grade. When I taught 3rd grade, I focused on the 3rd grade standards.

Another problem with AIMS is that it is given, in most districts, the 2nd/3rd weeks of April, when there is still a good 6 weeks left of school. So right there we have lost 6 weeks worth of instructional days. Teachers would LOVE for AIMS to be pushed back, but the state won't "get the scores in time" to determine AZ Learns (that is the excuse they are giving as to why AIMS can't be given in May instead). The reality is, the scores are back to schools by mid-July, its just that they aren't "official" until October, so I quite honestly don't buy their excuses.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And, unless I've missed something major, NCLB doesn't really require that anyone do anything to teachers based on the results of the test. If that's going on, it's an example of a local or state policy that the district is blaming on NCLB.

But it is due to NCLB that put these high stakes tests on the map, which therefore translates down to the teachers. It's not the districts that blame NCLB for the kids failing, the districts blame the schools administrators, who in turn blame the teachers. Blame is never put on the district or administrators. Blame is never put on the parents or child (god forbid), it is always the teachers fault that the kids are failing. And it isn't the previous teachers fault, it is that teachers fault. I have witnessed it first hand.

Like I've mentioned I taught 3rd grade. Before I moved up to 3rd grade, there was a lot of "problems" (according to adminstration) in the grade level. When the scores came back, 3rd grade was the reason the school failed to make AYP and was labeled failing by the state. My principal was very good at blaming the 1 remaining 3rd grade teacher (myself and the other one were moved to the grade level). He had no problem saying that she was the reason the school failed. This made her feel like crap! Of course my administrator wasn't taking into account that that particular 3rd grade students were awful not only in behavior but in academics. Hello, shouldn't then the 2nd,1st and kinder teachers be blamed as well considering you get what is "brought" up to you? (Just an FYI of these students they did awful on their 4th grade tests and 5th grade tests).

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

So the problem isn't the teacher, it's the teacherS? I'm much happier with that analysis than the demonizing of a set of standards (with the subtext of complaining about being judged based on performance, as happens in every other professional field).

It just seems like we speak in absolutes and platitudes when discussing NCLB - if the family has such a big influence on kids that they become essentially unteachable, why even have schools? If the previous teachers sucked that badly, shouldn't that be borne out in the data? If SpEd and ESL students are such a drag on the numbers, why are they included and/or why aren't these individuals placed in a location that can be fairly judged against standards (i.e. another program/school)?

This seems so eminently fixable that it sucks to hear about how much it, well, sucks. I've long held that the problems in education (ranging from teacher pay to classroom size) are largely a function of bloated and ineffective administration - is that, combined with legislative inertia, enough to remove our ability to enact seemingly straightforward standards?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If SpEd and ESL students are such a drag on the numbers, why are they included and/or why aren't these individuals placed in a location that can be fairly judged against standards (i.e. another program/school)?

Because the government, per NCLB, want them included. They can't segregate the special needs kids (well the ones that can function on their own), it's what is called "inclusion." Once they get to certain grade, they are put into a 'normal' classroom, whether they are ready or not. It's why my legally deaf cousin, is part of a normal 3rd grade monolingual class. It's called "inclusion." So he'll be taking the same TAKS test (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) that all the other 3rd graders take. It doesn't help that his teacher doesn't know how to teach him and because he's already been put into the "normal" class, he doesn't get his special ed classes anymore.

His test will be the same, except he won't have the field questions (i.e. the questions that are meant to be so difficult that the kids can't pass that question---but they aren't included in the final score).

Really unless you are a teacher, you won't really 'get' why there is so much hostility towards NCLB. It is a good system, in theory, but it hasn't been implemented properly.


ETA:

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And, unless I've missed something major, NCLB doesn't really require that anyone do anything to teachers based on the results of the test.

That's actually not true. NCLB may not be directly responsible for it, but there are consequences if schools don't meet AYP. If a school doesn't meet AYP, they get put on a growth plan (like i mentioned earlier). If after the 5th year, a school doesn't meet AYP (in any area) then the school will be taken over by the "government." It will be up to them what would happen to the teachers..they could keep them, dismiss them all, or just dismiss some of them.

That has been something that has been in place since the beginning of NCLB. I never had to take the TAKS (the TAKS started the year after me) but even then I heard that if the students didn't pass the TAKS, then teachers could be fired.

Like I mentioned before, there is one school in this area that is on their 5th year not meeting AYP's graduation rate (and we've already talked about that). If they don't bring up their graduation rate, then the school will be taken over.