6-year-old expelled over Cub Scout utensil

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

I didn't see those posts so I don't know what was said.

My point was that people tend to make that argument when their favored politician is in office - when the other party is in office, it then tends to be ok to criticize the President. As an example, under that logic, no one could criticize Bush's policy choices, as he had intelligence available to him that wasn't available to the general public.

As to this particular story: I don't have a problem with "a" punishment for the kid bringing a knife to school, but I think that the punishment in question was a bit out of line. If you have a kid bringing a gun to school, then fine, I think that raises things to another level.

But there, with the tool involved, I wonder why they don't have this policy: take away the item, bring the kid to the principal's office, and call the parents. I feel like in situations like this, a procedure like that would suffice.

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Something to think about.... the waning popularity of the scouting movement among parents, school systems, and communities?

Is popularity really waning? I'd agree, in that my perception is that it seemed like a lot more kids were in the scouting program when I was a little kid, but I also haven't worked in early childhood education for a few years. I also haven't seen any stats that speak to that issue.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by AGDee

So, does one instance seem silly? Sure, absolutely. Does the rule seem inflexible? Absolutely. But, it's the easy way out for the schools. As long as there is some sort of appeal process (our district does have one), I really can't argue too strongly against their choice. Case by case seems more logical, yes. But schools certainly aren't the only entity to avoid risk by banning something rather than using careful evaluation of each case.

Well said, AGDee. I particularly agree with the bolded (my emphasis). My only concern with the appeal process is what happens to the student while the appeal is under consideration? In this student's case, his mom was able to home school him. Most/many students would not have that option available to them. It seems unfair (yes, I know, who said life was fair) for the student to be penalized while the appeal is underway. Kinda tosses out the innocent until proven guilty theory (then again, I recognize the importance of keeping all students safe while determining innocence/guilt).

I'm still on the fence, too. I truly can see both sides. Unfortunately, either side seems like an extreme (way too strict vs. extremely naive). I'm having a hard time finding a way to identify the median. So far, strict policy with an appeal process seems to be the best option.

[ForeverRoses]

[QUOTE=deepimpact2;1857620]4. while they are promoting the fact that he is a cub scout so heavily, perhaps they should question why someone in his cub scout group didn't advise him NOT to take the utensil to school. furthermore, why didn't his MOTHER advise him not to take the utensil to school and check to make sure he didn't?
QUOTE]

I must say that while I do go through my 7 yr old's backpack every evening, he has put things in there and taken them to school without me knowing (so far it's just been a bakugan and a lego magazine). So his mother might not have known that he took this to school.

Also, I know of several cub scout dens that meet at my son's school. And the pocket mess set (the fork, spoon, knife set) is something that they use in some of their activities AT THE SCHOOL. While an adult or older child might be able to separate out a scout meeting from school- smaller children have more trouble seeing the line. So if the boy used/recieved the utensil set at a scout meeting at school, it might be hard for him to process that taking it to school for actual school is wrong.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

But there, with the tool involved, I wonder why they don't have this policy: take away the item, bring the kid to the principal's office, and call the parents. I feel like in situations like this, a procedure like that would suffice.

COMMON SENSE AT WORK!




That's not a knife.




Now THAT'S a KNIFE.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You know folks...I am just an average Joe here, legal jargon aside...but back to what ForeverRoses and I were alluding to earlier...whatever happened to simply calling the parents to the school and having a private discussion with the admin and said parents and K.I.M?

Have we become that paranoid a society that we have to get the law involved for everything?

Times like this (not to mention the fact the we need crash helmets for kids with Big Wheels) is why I DON'T want kids.

What should happen (in my view):

Teacher sees kid with knife. Teacher asks him about it. He tells her he just joined Cub Scouts and it's his new knife from his mess kit. Teacher says, "I know you're excited and I'm glad for you, but you know it's against the rules to bring a knife to school. I'm going to need to take it for now; it will be in the office. Your parents can pick it up there. Please remember not to bring knives to school again. Thanks." (Can't give it back to him in case he rides a bus or something.) When the parents pick it up, they are reminded, nicely, that son can't be bringing knives to school. Done.

But thanks to a variety of occurences, many school boards have decided that, for the kids' safety and because of liability concerns, they have to demonstrate ZERO TOLERANCE. The something comes along to show how ZERO TOLERANCE is an over-reaction, and how one size doesn't fit all, and we hope some common sense creeps in.

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Did you actually SEE what he took to school? it was more than a piece of "cutlery." What's goofy is a bunch of folks acting like a knife is acceptable at school.

I haven't seen anyone acting like a knife is acceptable at school. People have been saying that there are better ways to handle a situation like this.

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Something to think about.... the waning popularity of the scouting movement among parents, school systems, and communities?

I don't really think so. That's not at all a universal phenomenon. It's waning in some places but not in others, and even where school systems are not supportive, per se, they're not necessarily antagonistic -- they just don't let recruiting or meetings happen on school property. (Or they let it happen on school property as long as it's the PTA and not the school itself in charge.) Many school systems are quite supportive of Scouting. (And in my experience, at least, most teachers are.) Some systems that aren't as supportive aren't because of the things that gather media support, while others have reached the decision that even though they'd have no problem letting the Scouts (Boy and Girl) in, they can't because then they might not be able to say "no" to a group they don't like.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

What should happen (in my view):

Teacher sees kid with knife. Teacher asks him about it. He tells her he just joined Cub Scouts and it's his new knife from his mess kit. Teacher says, "I know you're excited and I'm glad for you, but you know it's against the rules to bring a knife to school. I'm going to need to take it for now; it will be in the office. Your parents can pick it up there. Please remember not to bring knives to school again. Thanks." (Can't give it back to him in case he rides a bus or something.) When the parents pick it up, they are reminded, nicely, that son can't be bringing knives to school. Done.

^^^Common sense AT WORK!

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

There really isn't that much of a difference. What matters really is the school system.

I love how you JUST KEEP telling me that these are thing "I should realize" when what I realize is that these are some things that YOU should realize is simply "out of your control".

This is the media we are talking about. An entity that THRIVES off of bad news if they made things 'simple', they wouldn't stay in business.

And to answer your number 5, I think the picture in the article and this passage:

“Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously,” said Debbie Christie, Zachary’s mother, who started a Web site, helpzachary.com, in hopes of recruiting supporters to pressure the local school board at its next open meeting on Tuesday. “He is not some sort of threat to his classmates.

”Uhhhh...COMMON SENSE to me sounds like the parents (which is what's needed for the news to print that info in the first place) gave PERMISSION for the media TO USE his likeness...but, hey...what do I know?


and to your number 3, I think we have expressed that one already since the beginning of the thread and THAT was simple in case you missed it: LACK OF COMMON SENSE.



That sums this WHOLE ENTIRE thread up nicely.

Oh and I am sorry...but what do you mean by "Those Kinds of Kids"? exactly to whom are you referring to? What is the difference between those kids and "other" kids? How do you quantify such an empirical and wide sweeping statement? How many different school systems in how many years have you taught to know the difference?

I am really hoping you aren't referring to the type of kids I taught.


...hypocrite.

Seeing as how you and others felt I was wrong for taking offense to the term "you," YOU are the hypocrite if you get upset at my usage of the phrase "those kinds of kids."

And while I notice yu want to put common sense in bold and all caps, the fact remains that YOU aren't using common sense in analysing the situation. Rules are in place to be followed. If they wanted to have a process where the weapon was confiscated first, then that is what they would have put in place. They didn't. I can't blame them.

Also, to reiterate a point I made earlier, there is something WRONG with a parent who is going to act as though her child did nothing wrong. This woman has GOT to be crazy. And I'm pretty sure had her son been at school and gotten cut with another child's knife, she would have been on the other side of the fence.

School systems need to stop being so political and allowing parents to run over them. Many parents are just NOT going to accept or admit that their child is wrong in certain instances...especially when doing so means their child will be suspended or sent to an alternative school. That is when officials have to be firm. That is one thing I will say about my school system (the one I attended and last worked in). The superintendent was very supportive of the principals in these types of situations and the board always backed him. They didn't let the parents try to tell them how to run the schools when it came to things like this. If there was a policy in place, that was it. No allowances were going to be made for one child as opposed to another.

ETA: This does not mean that every policy in place is a good one. In one school system where I worked, water guns were treated the same as real guns. Therefore if a child brought a water gun to school, they would be suspended for 365 days. I do think that is too stringent and should be changed, but luckily that policy only came into play once.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

COMMON SENSE AT WORK!




That's not a knife.




Now THAT'S a KNIFE.

A knife is a knife. Either one can inflict injury. It is a slippery slope indeed to try and have different ways of handling a weapon based whether a person thinks one weapon is not as big as the other or some other such foolishness.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

Seeing as how you and others felt I was wrong for taking offense to the term "you," YOU are the hypocrite if you get upset at my usage of the phrase "those kinds of kids."

And while I notice yu want to put common sense in bold and all caps, the fact remains that YOU aren't using common sense in analysing the situation. Rules are in place to be followed. If they wanted to have a process where the weapon was confiscated first, then that is what they would have put in place. They didn't. I can't blame them.

Also, to reiterate a point I made earlier, there is something WRONG with a parent who is going to act as though her child did nothing wrong. This woman has GOT to be crazy. And I'm pretty sure had her son been at school and gotten cut with another child's knife, she would have been on the other side of the fence.

School systems need to stop being so political and allowing parents to run over them. Many parents are just NOT going to accept or admit that their child is wrong in certain instances...especially when doing so means their child will be suspended or sent to an alternative school. That is when officials have to be firm. That is one thing I will say about my school system (the one I attended and last worked in). The superintendent was very supportive of the principals in these types of situations and the board always backed him. They didn't let the parents try to tell them how to run the schools when it came to things like this. If there was a policy in place, that was it. No allowances were going to be made for one child as opposed to another.

Ok...exactly how thick headed and blind are you?

I'm not upset over 'those kind of kids' I actually find it funny that you had the STONES to even post that little ditty after the bullshyte you put KSig and Kevin through last weekend over that post you knee jerked over and everyone and their gran'ma had to explain the context TO YOU.

Having a hard time now trying to explain 'those types of children' hmm?

Doesn't feel so good now does it?

Any ol' ways...moving from your irrelevant rants to another.


Yes. Rules are in place to be followed...rules are also in place to be interpreted which is WHY rules tend to CHANGE.


and this...

School systems need to stop being so political and allowing parents to run over them. Many parents are just NOT going to accept or admit that their child is wrong in certain instances...

Just as some schools need to be fair and not think that every little child that walks in the door and makes ONE mistake (that can easily corrected by education and not punishment) will make that child a hardened criminal.

Read the article.

He. Did. Not. Know.

He is SIX.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924...-today_people/

If you read the article. you will notice that it states why the school had this zero tolerance policy in the first place: they wanted to avoid racial discrimination.

I would posit that the best way to avoid racial discrimination is to not discriminate on the basis of race, rather than enacting a crappy policy that "eliminates" it from a liability perspective but not at all from a pragmatic perspective.

[SydneyK]

^^^But... that makes too much sense.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

^^^But... that makes too much sense.

Seems to be the theme of this thread.

[AGDee]

There's one other thing that I think we always need to remember with these cases. While the parent and kid (or disgruntled employee, or whoever) is always free to speak out loudly about the issue. The school or employer isn't allowed to say a word. We really have no way of knowing that this wasn't the 57th time this kid brought this thing to school and was told he couldn't. I mean, it seems unlikely in this case, but we honestly don't know and the school is bound by confidentiality laws to not say a word about his past record. Sure, Cub Scout who wears suits to school sometimes sounds like a good kid, but I was Cub Scout leader, they are NOT all model citizens. We don't know the history and can't know the history.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by AGDee

We don't know the history and can't know the history.

True...but the school still could have and should have done a better job of formulating the policy.

Going along with what RC said, they still could have avoided the racial issues by 1) having a better written policy and 2) being mindful of enforcement of the policy.

It seems to me that making a "no tolerance" policy along these lines shows a pretty significant lack of trust in the staff and administration's ability to make decisions.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

The Scouter in me feels constrained to point out that, as excited as this kid was, he wouldn't (or shouldn't) have been allowed to carry that or any other knife at any Scout functions. Before a knife can be carried, the Scout must earn his whittling chip, which is typically earned as a Bear Scout (third grade) and which demonstrates that he knows how to use a knife safely.