Parents and lawmakers speak out against Obama's speech to students

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sqid smoks crak

I don't have it either. If you haven't seen it then how do you know that the parents that complained didn't have a legit issue?

How could the parents have a "legit issue" if THEY never saw the speech?

The parents assumed it would be political because, well, political hacks always assume everything is political. The actual speech couldn't have been less political if it were entirely centered on the 2005 White Sox and their propensity to score nearly exclusively via the home run.

The Occam's Razor solution is that the parents' concerns were bred much more of fear-mongering and political hackery than from some sort of PTO feel-good hyper-involvement with their kids' educations.

This is also why baci's point holds so little water - all the sudden, this is the precise moment when a sea of (ONLY REPUBLICAN) parents become overwhelmingly involved with schooling? Really? It's cognitive dissonance at its finest, and I have absolutely no qualms saying that.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

How could the parents have a "legit issue" if THEY never saw the speech?

The parents assumed it would be political because, well, political hacks always assume everything is political. The actual speech couldn't have been less political if it were entirely centered on the 2005 White Sox and their propensity to score nearly exclusively via the home run.

The Occam's Razor solution is that the parents' concerns were bred much more of fear-mongering and political hackery than from some sort of PTO feel-good hyper-involvement with their kids' educations.

This is also why baci's point holds so little water - all the sudden, this is the precise moment when a sea of (ONLY REPUBLICAN) parents become overwhelmingly involved with schooling? Really? It's cognitive dissonance at its finest, and I have absolutely no qualms saying that.

why bother with this fellow?

On the other hand...look at it like this, in a twisted way, this is probably the most involved that some of these parents have been in thier schools in a long, long time. Heh!!!!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

why bother with this fellow?

As baci showed, there are other posters who are non-trolling, intelligent individuals who were along for the ride here, too - since it's not a flame war, there's still something to be gleaned from discussion, even if the source is playing Successful Troll is Successful.

[DrPhil]

I believe Obama had his speech edited in light of the criticisms.

I heard much of the speech today and I heard borderline socialist undertones. Any reference to things along the lines of (not verbatum) "help me to help this country" and "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" are collectivism, which is good, but can detour into pseudosocialism if tax payers aren't conscious and critical at every turn.

It all goes back to what I've been saying all along (besides that he talks too damn much and is as annoyingly visible as Beyonce is). Obama wants to be liked and revered. He wants to be considered an eloquent speaker and yadayadayada. Not necessary to be a good POTUS. I don't have to like the POTUS. Just do your job and we as a people need to remain aware and critical.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I believe Obama had his speech edited in light of the criticisms.

I heard much of the speech today and I heard borderline socialist undertones. Any reference to things along the lines of (not verbatum) "help me to help this country" and "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" are collectivism, which is good, but can detour into pseudosocialism if tax payers aren't conscious and critical at every turn.

It all goes back to what I've been saying all along (besides that he talks too damn much and is as annoyingly visible as Beyonce is). Obama wants to be liked and revered. He wants to be considered an eloquent speaker and yadayadayada. Not necessary to be a good POTUS. I don't have to like the POTUS. Just do your job and we as a people need to remain aware and critical.

If telling kids "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" can lead to socialism, sign me up....if asking your nations children to be educated citizens means that you are a socialist (which I think is reducing the the term a little...a term, by the way, which though not necessarily right for the USA is not an evil entity) we should all be socialists. What's wrong with wanting better for the next generation and better for our nation?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

If telling kids "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" can lead to socialism, sign me up....if asking your nations children to be educated citizens means that you are a socialist (which I think is reducing the the term a little...a term, by the way, which though not necessarily right for the USA is not an evil entity) we should all be socialists. What's wrong with wanting better for the next generation and better for our nation?

You made a huge leap here. Obviously there is nothing wrong with the bolded.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I heard much of the speech today and I heard borderline socialist undertones. Any reference to things along the lines of (not verbatum) "help me to help this country" and "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" are collectivism, which is good, but can detour into pseudosocialism if tax payers aren't conscious and critical at every turn.

... but this has been a risk since, well, the New Deal at the latest, and possibly decades before that, hasn't it?

The reality is that the US system has always integrated socialist/collectivist elements into its otherwise Federalist/Republic/Democratic nature.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

... but this has been a risk since, well, the New Deal at the latest, and possibly decades before that, hasn't it?

The reality is that the US system has always integrated socialist/collectivist elements into its otherwise Federalist/Republic/Democratic nature.

I think most people realize this. The problem is with going further down that path, particularly feeling as though we're being hoodwinked and bamboozled into doing so.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I believe Obama had his speech edited in light of the criticisms.

I heard much of the speech today and I heard borderline socialist undertones. Any reference to things along the lines of (not verbatum) "help me to help this country" and "if you don't stay in school, you let down your country" are collectivism, which is good, but can detour into pseudosocialism if tax payers aren't conscious and critical at every turn.

It all goes back to what I've been saying all along (besides that he talks too damn much and is as annoyingly visible as Beyonce is). Obama wants to be liked and revered. He wants to be considered an eloquent speaker and yadayadayada. Not necessary to be a good POTUS. I don't have to like the POTUS. Just do your job and we as a people need to remain aware and critical.

I still don't see the problem. How does that detour into socialism? Seems like you and too many members of the general public are just grasping at straws at this point.

And why are you always criticizing his speaking ability? Do you say that about every single President? I could understand a few remarks here and there, but now you are just sounding sour and bitter. I didn't think Bush was eloquent, but I didn't say it every single time he gave a speech. Have you not realized by now that ALL Presidents generally give quite a few speeches? Besides, I would rather have a President who actively tries to inform the public instead of one who stays silent and expects the public to just go along because he's the President.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

How does that detour into socialism?

You do not see how collectivism can detour into socialism if we are not careful? "Help the government to help you" "you let down your country if you don't do this"

It's just a look at the various stages that bring countries to the social and economic systems that they have. It doesn't happen overnight; and, agree or disagree, that is just an observation of people's fear of the potential. It isn't a prediction.

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

And why are you always criticizing his speaking ability?

Obviously, I have a problem with it. People unfairly criticized G.W. all the time and called him dumb. Some people did that everytime G.W. was mentioned. At least G.W. hadn't convinced himself that he was such an eloquent and influential leader that he had to CONSTANTLY talk to us about something.

We are going down a dark road and setting a bad precedent when the POTUS will not shut up. The POTUS is not THE White House representative and we do have a system of checks and balances that should never be blurred.

For many people, it conjures up Stalinist images of a "leader" whose power is taken to a new height via nonstop speeches to the masses and an eventual "cult of personality."

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sqid smoks crak

Parts of the speech were on the news. In one part Obama told the kids it is their job to help the President and he wanted them to send letters or something.

Try studying up a little more. That was not the speech or an earlier draft of the speech. That was a lesson plan put out by the Department of Education, which suggested that teachers could have students write letters in response to the speech saying how they could "help the president." The Department said they thought the intent was clear -- help the president reach the goals outlined in the speech of reducing drop-out rates and the like. Buy that explanation or don't buy it, whatever floats your boat.

In any event, the wording of the lesson plan was changed to the suggestion that school kids "[w]rite letters to themselves about how they can achieve their short‐term and long‐term education goals." Other parts of the lesson plan asked "What do you think the President wants us to do? Does the speech make you want to do anything? Are we able to do what President Obama is asking of us? What would you like to tell the President?"

Do you think it is a coincidence that the speech was the day before the healthcare bill speech?

Do you think it is a coincidence that the speech was given the day after Labor Day, the symbolic end of summer, and a traditional first day of school in parts of the country?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sqid smoks crak

Nice try. Now why is the healthcare speech two days after Labor Day? Is healthcare somehow related to the symbolic end of summer and the start of school?

Not to the symbolic end of summer or the start of school per se, but yes. Congress returned from its August recess this week and will start once again debating healthcare reform. If you're going to make a speech the purpose of which is to try to refocus and influence the debate, seems logical to do it when Congress has just come back to town and before everything starts again in earnest. I think my 6th-grader would say "well duh."

But hey, if it completes your world to think that there was some nefarious scheme to have middle-schoolers from across the country flooding Capitol Hill with letters advocating for a single-payer health care plan, then by all means live your dream.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But hey, if it completes your world to think that there was some nefarious scheme to have middle-schoolers from across the country flooding Capitol Hill with letters advocating for a single-payer health care plan, then by all means live your dream.

LOLing at the mental image of sqid smoks crak running off to google the definition of nefarious.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sqid smoks crak

Do you know many guys that use the name MysticCat?

I know a few, yes. There have been at least 2 or 3 of my brothers here who have used it in one form or another here at GC, since it has significance for us.

Originally Posted by sqid smoks crak

That is funny because I was picturing MysticCat looking it up. It is like when she learns a new acronym like POTUS or SCOTUS and then she beats it to .

Just FYI, this MysticCat is a member of the SCOTUS bar and has had quite a few cases there. I really didn't have to look up SCOTUS or POTUS.

Now please, tell us more about how the news outlets released early versions of the president's speech. Go ahead . . . embarrass yourself a little more.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just FYI, this MysticCat is a member of the SCOTUS bar and has had quite a few cases there. I really didn't have to look up SCOTUS or POTUS.

Just FYI, you went up about 10000 points in coolness in my book. You have achieved two of my professional dreams (membership in the SCOTUS bar and having cases before the Court).

- KSigKid
SCOTUS junkie