Senator Kennedy has died

[Psi U MC Vito]

What a shame. One of the last few career politicians with integrity left.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Don't start with this - first, it's not worth engaging buck1 in this type of debate, he/she is just trying to get a rise out of people. Second, the Bush and Kennedy situations were different in a number of ways.

So, please don't even start with that type of discussion. Thanks.

We need a name for this, like Godwin, because that's already the 3rd time I have read that little back & forth today.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

When people say it is hitting them, I think they mean the whole passing of the concept of a family dynasty like the Kennedys - who we have never had anything else like in the US - rather than anything EMK did (or didn't do) in general. My mom was a mess when Jackie died, and I didn't understand it at all. Now I do.

Yeah, this probably plays a massive part in the whitewashing of the historical record, too - and like I said, I don't blame anybody for doing it (and that's beside the fact that his transgressions largely took part in a different era, especially for the media), and he really was an amazing dude (whether or not you liked him).

An interesting back-and-forth I saw earlier today basically proves this via example - one pundit labeled him the ultimate champion for the underprivileged, while the other basically said Kennedy started the "entitlement complex" that nearly dragged under welfare, the VA and grossly bloated US budgets for decades.

Both are likely true. I can't even think of the last American figure who so starkly displayed both the purest white and darkest black sides of the coin. He's an absolutely fascinating case study.

[ASTalumna06]

Growing up in New England, it was weird to move somewhere else and not have people fully understand The Kennedys as they are known in the far northeast. As someone has already said, they really were like royalty.

I didn't agree with Senator Kennedy's policies much at all, and I've made the same comments and jokes about Chappaquiddick that everyone else has. But I was able to listen to 96.9fm (a Boston station) this morning on the internet, for only an hour before work, and I can't even tell you how many phone calls were made in to the show by people who had a good memory to share about Ted Kennedy. And not just things that they saw on tv, but actual interactions that they had with him, whether it be in person, on the phone, through email or letters.

There was one woman who called in who said that her mother died not too long ago, and while going through her things, she found a letter from Kennedy that, to sum it up, basically said, "Thank you for all of your support during this time." This was shortly after the Chappaquiddick story broke, and she assumed that her mother wrote a letter to the senator saying that she was still standing behind him.

Another person mentioned how one of his friends was in the military, and while fighting overseas, his wife was killed in a car accident. He returned home, and was obviously extremely upset. They told him some time later that he would have to return to active duty, but he was still extremely upset and didn't feel that he would be able to perform his job as he did before. He contacted the senator, and a short time later he received word that he would not be required to return.

Someone else called and said that he had met Kennedy at a charity event, they struck up a conversation, he gave the senator his business card, and he received a "holiday card" from Kennedy a couple weeks later. The two then began conversing, and from then on would just chat on the phone every so often, about everyday things.

Whatever his policies, he definitely was someone who looked out for the people of Massachusetts, and for everyone in this country, and who was always willing to take a few minutes out of his busy schedule to help out the little guy.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by buck1

I know Kennedy drove off a bridge, fled the scene and left somone to die like a coward. Is that your idea of integrity?

My idea of integrity is judging how someone lived his life by looking at his entire life and the trajectory of that life, not just at one incident, especially when that incident occured before the midway point in the person's life.

My idea of intergrity is also to refrain from hubris in judging the flaws of others; I have enough flaws and failings of my own to occupy my attention.

I'm watching his procession to the JFK Library. It's amazing to see how many people have stopped their cars on the highway and on overpasses just to catch a glimpse of his hearse.

So we have a person who's calling the dead a coward. I think it's pretty safe to say that we who are grateful for his service are far greater in number than those who choose to speak ill of him. Look at buck1's posts. Clearly this troll is here to stir shit up.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by buck1

He was 36 at the time of the accident. Not exactly a kid was he?

No, but since he lived to be 77, it was before the midway point in his life, which is what I said.

Was Chappaquiddick part of his "entire" life or do you exclude that part of his entire life?

Of course it was part of his entire life. I do not exclude it from my assessment of him -- I said I do not base by assessment of him solely on one incident.

You, however, seem to want to exclude every part of his life of 77 years except Chappaquiddick.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by OTW

I'm watching his procession to the JFK Library. It's amazing to see how many people have stopped their cars on the highway and on overpasses just to catch a glimpse of his hearse.

The crazy thing is, it's not so amazing for Boston. It's hard to accurately describe how much that city (and the Commonwealth, for that matter) loves the Kennedy family. It's something you don't fully get unless you've lived in Boston, or in MA. Today is essentially a Commonwealth Day of Mourning.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

The crazy thing is, it's not so amazing for Boston. It's hard to accurately describe how much that city (and the Commonwealth, for that matter) loves the Kennedy family. It's something you don't fully get unless you've lived in Boston, or in MA. Today is essentially a Commonwealth Day of Mourning.

I know it's not completely the same, but when this guy died, my whole state mourned. Tens of thousands of people showed up at the beach for his funeral (seen at the end of the video).

True, I'm not from Boston or from MA, but I definitely know how it feels to collectively mourn for a native son.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by OTW

I know it's not completely the same, but when this guy died, my whole state mourned. Tens of thousands of people showed up at the beach for his funeral (seen at the end of the video).

True, I'm not from Boston or from MA, but I definitely know how it feels to collectively mourn for a native son.

Oh, I wasn't saying that there haven't been analogous situations with other people in other states. I just meant that I wasn't really surprised by the outpouring of affection and the way that some areas of Boston have essentially shut down for the procession. I was more underscoring your point than trying to dispute it.

[UGAalum94]

KSigRC,

Thanks for pointing out that a complete reaction to Ted Kennedy's death might not simply involve hagiography.

I'm not a Kennedy fan generally, but I suppose it's interesting to note that Ted's political contributions have the most enduring significance.

I know that I regard the Kennedy family as being the most pronounced example of politicians as celebrities, at least pre-Obama, so the MJ comparisons seem really apt to me.

ETA: and Reagan has taken on almost religious significance for some Republicans, I didn't mean anything partisan in the last bit.

[Psi U MC Vito]

It is a real shame more politicians can't be like Senator Kennedy. I was reading the Daily News today and it had some of his colleagues telling stories about him. He was the kind of person who could have his own beliefs without being a zealot or condemning others for what they think. The paper was saying how some of the staunchest Republicans considered him a personal friend, because he was always friendly to them regardless of beliefs.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

KSigRC,

Thanks for pointing out that a complete reaction to Ted Kennedy's death might not simply involve hagiography.

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past. People understand about the cheating at Harvard, Chappaquidick (and the lack of reacion afterwards), the William Kennedy Smith trial, etc. In each of the retrospectives I've seen on Kennedy's life (both on TV and in the news), those topics have been addressed.

I think the other side to it is addressed in comments like buck1, and comments I've heard from friends in conversation, on Facebook, etc. The whole of his life wasn't the mistakes, just like the whole of his life wasn't the work he did in the Senate. I think the problem is when people say "Well, Mary Jo died, so nothing he did since then is important."

My feelings? As I said above, although I didn't agree with a lot of his political stances, I think that the work he did for Massachusetts was pretty incredible, and I don't know that anyone can ever fill that void. His work for the Commonwealth, for me, epitomized how an elected official should look out for their state/city/etc. At the same time, I'm (and I think, everyone else in this thread is) fully aware that Kennedy had some dark areas of his life that shouldn't be forgotten.

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past. People understand about the cheating at Harvard, Chappaquidick (and the lack of reacion afterwards), the William Kennedy Smith trial, etc. In each of the retrospectives I've seen on Kennedy's life (both on TV and in the news), those topics have been addressed.

I think the other side to it is addressed in comments like buck1, and comments I've heard from friends in conversation, on Facebook, etc. The whole of his life wasn't the mistakes, just like the whole of his life wasn't the work he did in the Senate. I think the problem is when people say "Well, Mary Jo died, so nothing he did since then is important."

Amen!

The coverage I have seen thus far has addressed these areas. And perhaps I, too, am giving people too much credit, but I think most people can comprehend that his life consisted of great triumph and horrible tragedies, extraordinary accomplishments as well as major mistakes. He was hardly a saint, but I believe he did do a lot of good for a lot of people and he will be missed.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but I think people fully understand the flaws in Kennedy's background, the dark parts in his past.

I think so, too.

Some of the comments from mourners on the news included the "he was not perfect...." and "despite his downsides...." disclaimers.