Private Pool Bans Minority Campers

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

There are highly selective black organizations out there such as Jack and Jill. They don't admit whites (as far as I know) and that's just fine with everyone. Their racial requirements are express, unlike country clubs where you have a circumstantial case at best for racially based exclusions. And in J&J's case, you don't have whites banging down the door for admission either.

Don't know how true that is. Because there are plenty of multi-racial people involved in J&J in my region and as a former member, while growing up, several of my age-group fellow J&Jillers were multi-racial. But that's purely a West Coast phenomena.

In other areas, so I have heard and seen how there is exclusivity dividing along racial/ethnic lines. Let's just say that is getting old and a lame excuse for not choosing to treat people with human dignity and respect.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

The ignorance behind this statement is...staggering.

Yes, minorities are applying. We just don't often hear about them getting turned away because they may not be well known.

We only would hear about Colin Powell because he is famous.

What he's essentially saying is that those relatively few Blacks who are turned away could be turned away on a legit basis. They could be in the same boat as the whites who are turned away, since there are more whites who are turned away to mirror the larger proportion of whites who apply.

This is why this type of thing is difficult to "prove" so it gets swept under the rug. Suffice it to say that there are clubs that have had discriminatory rules on the books and discriminatory practices that aren't on the books. I believe some of these rules and practices have been documented years ago.

[Kevin]

I doubt it'd be a very big deal. I don't have a membership list of Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club (probably the most prestigious in town), but I'd assume just based upon the complexion of the community, it already has quite a few Lebanese (Lebanese are very wealthy and influential minority in OKC). I would think your hypothetical candidate wouldn't have a tough time getting in at all.

The Senior Partner of a law firm my father was a partner in once recruited him to join that Club. Dad didn't pursue it as he's more into fishing than golfing. Dad's boss was an outspoken anti-semite and racist though (despite his life-long business partner being Jewish). He's long dead though. I don't know what that says about the current membership, but at least as recently as the 80's and early 90's, I doubt a minority would have gotten a fair shake at that Club. That's rank speculation on my part though. I'm not around those people anymore and almost certainly wouldn't make the 'cut' to be considered there myself.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

With all the minorities in America, why does it have to go international? LOL

Where I come from, non-white country/social club members are either foreign-raised or first generation Canadian-born (and the first generation Canadian-born people are almost all under 40 and many grew up in the club - they would not have seeked membership themselves or have been recruited). Typically, they are East or South Asian.

ETA: You also have to take into consideration WHICH minorities are more likely to seek membership, too.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

The ignorance behind this statement is...staggering.

Yes, minorities are applying. We just don't often hear about them getting turned away because they may not be well known.

We only would hear about Colin Powell because he is famous.

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

That is true, but for non-white people, there is the addition of race. I do agree that often, it's because he/she doesn't have the necessary connections.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

Beyond this, I'm sure there are some number of clubs that are systematically finding excuses to reject black members. I'm sure there are proportionally more that have a higher bar for black members than white members, or have dabbled in "tokenism" or other similar behavior.

We have simply no idea of how to separate these instances from the larger whole, and the fallback position of the club (essentially, "we make the rules and he's not good enough") is practically unassailable.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

But as a person of color, you don't know if is NOT true... How come my family has to be judged to join a recreational facility? How come my career interactions have to come into play when requesting joining? It could be anything and it could be honed into race...

You are right, true, not everything is about race... At the same time, people of color who want to join these locations are not thinking that their race would be a factor in their joining, either...

But something as a blatant disregard to taking nearly ~$2000 of an inner city's organization's money where they find a way swim is not the time to have "hissy fit" about the activity. As, I understand it, if some of the club members felt that way about children, they needed to voice their opinions to the owners well beyond taking the contracted money rather than say it directly to the children...

I have been kicked out of a pool because I was Black in Alabama in the early 1980's. So I actually do know how these kids feel. And for someone like me to enjoy the water like I do, like a fish, it was painful to have to undergo that humiliation as a child.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Beyond this, I'm sure there are some number of clubs that are systematically finding excuses to reject black members. I'm sure there are proportionally more that have a higher bar for black members than white members, or have dabbled in "tokenism" or other similar behavior.

We have simply no idea of how to separate these instances from the larger whole, and the fallback position of the club (essentially, "we make the rules and he's not good enough") is practically unassailable.

I don't doubt that either. The same could probably be said for fraternities and sororities at some schools.

And there's no way to fight the practice except to hope it goes away on its own. I think that eventually it will.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

But as a person of color, you don't know if is NOT true... How come my family has to be judged to join a recreational facility? How come my career interactions have to come into play when requesting joining? It could be anything and it could be honed into race...

You are right, true, not everything is about race... At the same time, people of color who want to join these locations are not thinking that their race would be a factor in their joining, either...

But something as a blatant disregard to taking nearly ~$2000 of an inner city's organization's money where they find a way swim is not the time to have "hissy fit" about the activity. As, I understand it, if some of the club members felt that way about children, they needed to voice their opinions to the owners well beyond taking the contracted money rather than say it directly to the children...

I have been kicked out of a pool because I was Black in Alabama in the early 1980's. So I actually do know how these kids feel. And for someone like me to enjoy the water like I do, like a fish, it was painful to have to undergo that humiliation as a child.

Doesn't every family have to go through an application process, including interview and reference letters for most country/yacht/social clubs? I thought that was the normal process???

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Doesn't every family have to go through an application process, including interview and reference letters for most country/yacht/social clubs? I thought that was the normal process???

Why in the United States? I know the ability to pay is questioned because you do have groundkeeping/docking/mooring fees. But as far as references for country/yacht, I am not a member, and I would not want to be a member. But, some people of family are due to their professional statures.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

But as a person of color, you don't know if is NOT true...

But you don't know that it's not not true. As far as judging your family, career interactions, etc., that's probably not going to happen at a lot of places, but some clubs are only able to keep their membership fees at a certain level and paying members because those members want the prestige of belonging to a highly selective organization. At some of these places, absolutely everything is under the microscope. And typically, belonging will have positive impact on your business opportunities, etc. Other places are just happy to have anyone as a member.

But something as a blatant disregard to taking nearly ~$2000 of an inner city's organization's money where they find a way swim is not the time to have "hissy fit" about the activity. As, I understand it, if some of the club members felt that way about children, they needed to voice their opinions to the owners well beyond taking the contracted money rather than say it directly to the children...

I have been kicked out of a pool because I was Black in Alabama in the early 1980's. So I actually do know how these kids feel. And for someone like me to enjoy the water like I do, like a fish, it was painful to have to undergo that humiliation as a child.

Well, it hasn't even been established that the rejection for these kids was racially motivated. That's an inference you can definitely draw from what was said, but it's hardly the only conclusion you can reach. I'm not giving my blessing to racism by any means. I'm just saying that there's not a hell of a lot that can be done about it when it's not overt and express.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Why in the United States? I know the ability to pay is questioned because you do have groundkeeping/docking/mooring fees. But as far as references for country/yacht, I am not a member, and I would not want to be a member. But, some people of family are due to their professional statures.

But it's not only about the ability to pay. It's about fit as well. Do you want Britney Spears as a member in a club (well, back in her crazy days, anyway)? Britney may be in the spotlight, but there are people LIKE her who aren't. And yes, someone can write a bad ref letter for you.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

But you don't know that it's not not true. As far as judging your family, career interactions, etc., that's probably not going to happen at a lot of places, but some clubs are only able to keep their membership fees at a certain level and paying members because those members want the prestige of belonging to a highly selective organization. At some of these places, absolutely everything is under the microscope. And typically, belonging will have positive impact on your business opportunities, etc. Other places are just happy to have anyone as a member.



Well, it hasn't even been established that the rejection for these kids was racially motivated. That's an inference you can definitely draw from what was said, but it's hardly the only conclusion you can reach. I'm not giving my blessing to racism by any means. I'm just saying that there's not a hell of a lot that can be done about it when it's not overt and express.

Why put myself through the torture in thinking I am never going to be good enough to join a "country club" if that was my measurement of success?

As far as the pool in Philadelphia, the owners probably did not think that. However, they are being judged by the company they keep and "birds of a feather, flock together". That doesn't mean it is fair assessment, but nonetheless, it doesn't mean that the owners are saving face either.

I mean really, they didn't scrub the pool after these kids left, which would have added insult to injury, which often happened after someone Black who plopped a pinky-toe into the pool water...

Ironically, the only sign they needed is this one:

"NOTICE OUR 'OOL'--NOTICE THERE'S NO 'P' IN IT! LET'S KEEP IT THAT WAY!!!"

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

But it's not only about the ability to pay. It's about fit as well. Do you want Britney Spears as a member in a club (well, back in her crazy days, anyway)? Britney may be in the spotlight, but there are people LIKE her who aren't. And yes, someone can write a bad ref letter for you.

Apples meet Oranges...

I am sorry, I am unable to connect those dots. What does this have to do joining a country/yacht club?

I've already said I am not a member of one. So what can I add to their membership process?